GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[crs1026]

My observations are, obviously, anecdotal, but I am pretty sure the numbers are supportive of my observations because GO has purchased and is about to demolish an office building to provide more parking.....they know their audience and know their users...and they are people who want to drive and park before getting on a train.

You are bang on, today. This has to change. There isn't room or money to add all the parking garages we need. I will sound like a downtowner by saying this - but I believe it: the biggest urban myth is the belief of people in the hinterland that they have bought into the suburbs to leave all the issues of intensification behind, and they should be left in peace on their curvy low-density streets with their automobiles.

My contacts in 905 transit tell me they have hard data showing that every time GO builds a parking lot or garage, their modal share drops at that station. Don't build the parking lot, and more people do ride transit, perhaps not happily. 905 transit needs to look a whole lot different to solve the problem. High-capacity artic buses on main routes is the wrong way to build last-mile transit ridership out there. We need to take people to the door, which means low-cap vehicles that navigate the back crescents. Waiting for self-driving pool cars won't suffice, we need something sooner.

A start would be to have more services and commerce available within steps of the transit hub. Get off the GO train, pick up your dry cleaning, visit your dentist, buy what you need to take home for dinner. (I seem to be digressing into another thread)

Add in that, I imagine, the off peak user is probably even less likely to use transit (partly because they are likely less regular users and, therefore less familiar with it and partly because frequencies of local busses drop in off peak hours) and I bet the move to build garages is because they are investing billions to provide off peak service on the other rail lines and their only way to get any riders on those trains is to have somewhere for those off peak users to park their vehicle.

Students excepted, off-peak riders are likely going someplace that is not where peak riders go, and for different reasons. We need to understand where they are going. But yes, their service needs to be just as frequent and just as good as peak service.

- Paul

 

[innsertnamehere]

Brampton has rather unique problems with encouraging density as it is probably the only municipality in the GTA that really struggles to sell condo units (maybe durham too, but even there the odd condo manages to go up).

Most GTA stations could easily support higher density development.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

A start would be to have more services and commerce available within steps of the transit hub. Get off the GO train, pick up your dry cleaning, visit your dentist, buy what you need to take home for dinner. (I seem to be digressing into another thread)

This! The problem with the GO stations is that there is no "there" there. You don't go there for anything other than riding GO, often times even when you have multiple bus routes servicing the station area and that's a waste of accessibility.

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

Its because parking is free. If you began charging, you obviously would not see entirely empty garages, but what you likely would see is an uptick in active transportation use and local transit to get to the stations.

well the parking lot is typically filled by 7/7:15 every day....but lack of free parking does not stop people from finding non-transit routes to the station...the line up of cars at the kiss and ride and along railroad street tells me that lack of free parking is not pushing people onto buses...they are just finding other ways (mostly vehicular) to get there and back.

Some GO stations do see somewhat significant local transit transfers. I know stations like Pickering have fairly strong bus service to and from them and probably 15-20% of GO train users transfer to a local bus.

That is an astonishingly high number...and if they are getting 15% at Pickering then they need to be writing about that and implementing that at all GO stations....but I don't think they have better local transit connections than at that Brampton station I am talking about and the number at Brampton looks to be lower than 5% (anecdotal observation).

Today there is no economic incentive to take the bus. If anything, it is actually cheaper to drive to the station if you own a car, as you are likely to burn less than 75 cents in gas getting there. Putting a $3 parking fee would make people think twice about driving, and actually consider taking local transit. Plus it would have the bonus of helping finance these $40,000 parking spots and reduce the need for garages in the first place. Building less garages and more TOD like you are seeing at Burlington and Maple stations is the way to go.

I can't comment on what would make people leave their car at home...when I take the GO I leave all 3 of my cars parked on the driveway....but I would imagine (based on current behaviour of ML and the number of surveys I have completed on the subject) that they believe that paid parking would not have the effect you are talking about.

 

[TOareaFan]

A start would be to have more services and commerce available within steps of the transit hub. Get off the GO train, pick up your dry cleaning, visit your dentist, buy what you need to take home for dinner. (I seem to be digressing into another thread)

This! The problem with the GO stations is that there is no "there" there. You don't go there for anything other than riding GO, often times even when you have multiple bus routes servicing the station area and that's a waste of accessibility.

AoD

You guys mean like at, say, Downtown Brampton?

 

[TOareaFan]

Brampton has rather unique problems with encouraging density as it is probably the only municipality in the GTA that really struggles to sell condo units (maybe durham too, but even there the odd condo manages to go up).

Most GTA stations could easily support higher density development.

It is not hard to figure out......when it costs north of $400 a foot to build a condo building and resales in Brampton are available for under $300 a foot....there is no market to build new!

Watch what goes up beside Mattamy's rhythm at Kennedy and Queen...it won't be phase II condo...that is for sure.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You guys mean like at, say, Downtown Brampton?

That's more the rule than the exception - I mean, just how many GO Stations have a functional urban fabric around it (let's be generous, 5 minutes walking distance). Off the top of my head - barely 1 in Mississauga. That's also a function of using an alignment that is based on, for all practical purposes, industrial uses (or suburban style greenfield development)

AoD

 

[innsertnamehere]

I can't comment on what would make people leave their car at home...when I take the GO I leave all 3 of my cars parked on the driveway....but I would imagine (based on current behaviour of ML and the number of surveys I have completed on the subject) that they believe that paid parking would not have the effect you are talking about.

Some sort of minor pricing obviously wouldn't see 100% uptake - that isn't what you would be looking for. $3 a day for commuters adds up, that is $750 a year for a 50 weeks a year commuter. Many (though not all) commuters would look for alternatives, whether that be local transit or active transport to access the station. 90% of people may continue to park.. but if you reduce demand by 10%, you have just freed up over 300 spots in many GO stations that have over 3,000 spots available.

 

[crs1026]

You guys mean like at, say, Downtown Brampton?

Fair point, although I wouldn't paint downtown Brampton as a fully functional finished product of what we're suggesting .

I wonder how far the added parkers in that new garage will be coming from, and what transit to their door looks like. How long to connect to their bus? Can they then make a stopover at their local plaza (which may be some distance up Hurontario) and then get back on the bus to their final stop, at no added fare? What is the walking distance from that stop to their door? How long do they wait for that last leg of their journey? It's pretty likely that the car looks much more convenient today.

I wonder also if the frequency of GO train service affects the willingness to take transit for the last mile. My impression is that many commuters have their life tightly timed to a routine, so that they get out of the house at the last possible moment to be sure of parking in time to catch the 7:09 train. If they miss that, at current headways it's the 7:34. There may be a bus, but it takes longer and there is less confidence that one will catch the 7:09. If the bus ran express from their neighbourhood (which it could if it were just a van), and if GO ran at 10 minute headways, would missing the 7:09 matter?

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

That's more the rule than the exception - I mean, just how many GO Stations have a functional urban fabric around it (let's be generous, 5 minutes walking distance). Off the top of my head - barely 1 in Mississauga. That's also a function of using an alignment that is based on, for all practical purposes, industrial uses (or suburban style greenfield development)

AoD

Sure but a fair bit of this discussion this afternoon has been around that station and my observations that frequent and cheap public transit is not going to remove the need for parking....then things to do around the station were thrown in...all of those things are available (along with frequent and cheap public transit) at DT Brampton and, yet, people drive and park...and when the parking lot is full....they have someone else drive them.

 

[TOareaFan]

Fair point, although I wouldn't paint downtown Brampton as a fully functional finished product of what we're suggesting .

I wonder how far the added parkers in that new garage will be coming from, and what transit to their door looks like.

that's the rub....when I hear people complain about public transit options and what it would take to get them to use it.....the implied solution is that they want public transit to their door. When I tell people that, god forbid, I walk 5 minutes to catch a bus to a bus to the GO station they look like they have seen a ghost.....the thought that someone might walk 5 minutes to a bus stop in the suburbs is mind boggling to them (nevermind they walk more than that from Union to their offices at the other end).

I really think DT Brampton station (and to a lesser extent Mt. Pleasant as well) is a real warning sign about relying on local public transit to deliver GO riders......the buses are frequent and comfortable and cheap.....and by most GO riders - ignored! That is not to say that the buses I ride to the station are empty....but they are people going somewhere else on the BT route system....they are not getting on/off GO trains for the most part. I really would love someone to show me those Pickering numbers at >15% and how that was achieved....because (from what I read) local service in Pickering is "not as good" as that which serves DT Brampton and I would love to see what they did to get people to ride transit in those numbers to GO....it would cheer me up a bit.

How long to connect to their bus? Can they then make a stopover at their local plaza (which may be some distance up Hurontario) and then get back on the bus to their final stop, at no added fare? What is the walking distance from that stop to their door? How long do they wait for that last leg of their journey? It's pretty likely that the car looks much more convenient today.

Like I said, along the routes that serve the DT Brampton station the combination of regular buses and Zum buses creates such frequent service (in peak travel times) that you don't even have to look at a service...stand at a stop and a bus will be there in minutes....similarly, when you get off a GO train, there is a bus waiting for you.

I wonder also if the frequency of GO train service affects the willingness to take transit for the last mile. My impression is that many commuters have their life tightly timed to a routine, so that they get out of the house at the last possible moment to be sure of parking in time to catch the 7:09 train. If they miss that, at current headways it's the 7:34. There may be a bus, but it takes longer and there is less confidence that one will catch the 7:09. If the bus ran express from their neighbourhood (which it could if it were just a van), and if GO ran at 10 minute headways, would missing the 7:09 matter?

- Paul

Given the ridership we are talking about....perhaps what GO found out is that providing direct bus/van service to every neighbourhood in the suburbs and running trains every 10 minutes is more expensive than, you know, building garages for people to park their cars in

 

[mdrejhon]

Given the ridership we are talking about....perhaps what GO found out is that providing direct bus/van service to every neighbourhood in the suburbs and running trains every 10 minutes is more expensive than, you know, building garages for people to park their cars in

Oh, that was the TTC subway that GO DIAL-A-BUS connected to.

And DIAL-A-BUS was an early rideshare carpool, exactly like a UberPOOL is today.

The rideshare model was not as efficient then as today. Today, we have Uber like systems, which are far more automated logistically than the DIAL-A-BUS concept, automating geolocation and automating direction finding, and with map navigators. And you have computer-generated "roving salesman/mailman" algorithms that optimizes carpool routes for best efficiency. It is updated dynamically on the fly, as new last-minute nearby hails are signalled and are picked up by an already en-route carpool nearest them (of many ongoing carpools)...

...rather than a huge CB radio centre connecting to a huge call centre, and all the attendant inefficiencies.

If you have taken a Uber before... you already know about the "press a button, and a pre-paid, pre-routed ride shows up at your current GPS location" experience that efficient modern rideshare (ala Uber et al) is today.

In 10, 20 or 30 years, we may see GO (and other govt funded transit agencies) run Uber equivalents by running a driver or driverless minibus hail -- as connecting/first/last mile to major transit hubs - in locations where it is economically unviable to run a full sized GO bus. Rideshare is actually mentioned by Metrolinx in the Big Move refresh as being one of the more viable options for low-density low-ridership areas.

 

[steveintoronto]

HOT lanes are free for green plates too. And your 'special treatment' argument is one I always love hearing repeated by climate change deniers/oil industry shills...

But, as I noted above, if there is no where to put the cars you are trying to lure off the rod with those signs....you won't have much success with it.

Enjoy watching GO crumble once 90% of its ridership is gone!

The great myth that people keep believing is that improving local transit in suburban cities/towns will reduce the number of people driving to GO stations. I offer as an example

I can't comment on what would make people leave their car at home.

etc, etc....

Which all points to the need for making motorists pay their fair share of the cost of roads (and gasoline tax is a pittance towards it):

Tolls! For all of those talking market solutions, the bottom line isn't so much subsidizing those who don't drive as much as making those that do pay for the privilege. Roads are incredibly expensive items. And it compounds geometrically in cost when all facets of life are counted.

You want to drive? Then you pay your way...how socialistic is that? That alone will reflect much more as to the efficiency and lower cost of transit.

High-capacity artic buses on main routes is the wrong way to build last-mile transit ridership out there. We need to take people to the door,

"We need to take people to the door," may sound absurd to some, if not many, but once that is addressed...then what possible reason could there be for a driver to justify driving to work save for anti-social and sexually unfulfilled tendencies? You want to do that? Then pay a road toll.

"We need to take people to the door," is ultimately the most affordable option. I resisted accepting this as logical for years, until realizing *in effect* this is already happening!

Rejohn lays out the logistics very well, and as much as I'm not part of the "app" generation (and I'm far from being a Luddite, I just select my communicative devices on a rationed basis) I can see how this has changed the whole business model of "Dial-a-Bus" radically. It was a great concept! It just lacked the communication that's available today.

 

[APTA-2048]

Quebec is a province where Dial-a-Bus (Taxibus) is still a very popular option for small municipalities and low density suburbs. Vehicles used range from automobiles to highway coaches. From what I gather, most of the service is still booked by phone call. But with automated vehicle location and dispatch employed by many transit agencies, I don't see why they couldn't get an app designed to facilitate true on-demand service.

 

[TOareaFan]

Quebec is a province where Dial-a-Bus (Taxibus) is still a very popular option for small municipalities and low density suburbs. Vehicles used range from automobiles to highway coaches. From what I gather, most of the service is still booked by phone call. But with automated vehicle location and dispatch employed by many transit agencies, I don't see why they couldn't get an app designed to facilitate true on-demand service.

Dial a bus was very popular in the Bramalea I grew up in too....but, honestly, I have trouble seeing it as a solution to get people to take transit to GO stations.

The essence of a dial a bus service is that those that need/want to use it call and book it....a route is dynamically formulated and an estimated time of pick up is established......depending on where you are in the route, it can meander through the neighbourhood picking up other passengers that booked. The time at your destination was given to you as an "estimate" because at the time you booked it would not be clear how many other passenger pickups were going to be scheduled between the time you booked and the time you are getting picked up. As a teenager in the G section of Bramalea I was ok telling my pals I would meet them at the city centre between 5 and 5:15....as an adult trying to catch the 8:25 train at Brampton GO I am not sure I could be as comfortable with the same system.

Although, I am very comfortable walking 5 minutes to Kennedy Road, catching a southbound 7 to Queen Street (operates on 7 minute frequencies in peak) and connecting with, either, a 501 (+/- 10 minute frequencies) or a 1 (+/- 1o minute frequencies) (those overlap for a +/- 5 minute frequncy) for the short hop over to the GO...smooth/easy/predictable and cheap.....seems a whole lot better/easier than a dial-a-bus service....but, as i pointed out - not being used by anything close to a significant number of GO riders.