GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[crs1026]

This means that Metrolinx will have to invest a lot of money to get this to anything....

And they still have to strike an agreement with that private company CPR. And CPR could say no.

Could you imagine the backlash if they promised 15 minute frequencies on the Milton Line and then CPR refused to allow them to?

They can't risk that, and since the huge investment and time needed to make it happen means its years away, they are being pretty hush about any kind of promise.

There is enough mention of this issue in ML documents - and in the media - to make me think that ML is actively pursuing some sort of solution. CP will say yes.....for sufficient remuneration. They already have GO on their line, so why not go big and make more money. Same for CN on the Brampton line. Unlike past deals, neither railroad is likely to sell the line outright, as they need it for freight traffic. So it's a complicated arrangement. ML clearly lacks bargaining leverage so the price is likely quite steep. As you note, no one is likely to say anything publicly before a deal is reached, and that could be years away. And the deal may not just be cash....would Queens Park change its position on the proposed Milton intermodal yard to get CN on board for the Brampton line? What would QP be prepared to do to get CP freight out of North Toronto altogether?

- Paul

 

[mdrejhon]

my opinion, with all-day train service to Hamilton, we should eliminate off-peak service to Aldershot altogether, including relocating VIA to Burlington Station. Relocating any remaining bus transfers (such as from McMaster) to Burlington Station would actually reduce those passengers' total travel times. The utility provided to the handful of people that might park-and-ride off-peak doesn't warrant the ~2.5 minutes the stop adds to the Hamilton-Toronto travel time.

I think eliminating Aldershot is a bad idea. GO has to go through there anyway to Hamilton, there is not enough parking at Burlington, I have seen the huge dual Aldershot parking lots (one hour of freeway lane max capacity - 1700 cars). Sometimes I see more people board aldershot than Burlington, depending on the specific morning train. Aldershot become full by 9:45-10:30am, and there is those plots of adjacent land that could eventually be used for development. With 15min service at Burlington, there will be a parking crisis there. Maybe make Burlington a pay lot, and keep Aldershot free or lower price (if free still overflows with 60min service).

With 1700 cars at Aldershot and becoming full, you eliminate a full freeway lane at peak hour (2000ish cars per hour). Might as well expand the freeways... and cancel the demolition of the Gardiner viaduct, too.

All of them, every single one, fill up all parking spots today and the parking demand would become worse with RER. I was lucky to find the last parking spot (after drving through all the rows) when I was delayed at home, and went to Aldershot at 9:55am. And that was the south parking lot, full even after the new spots added. Sometimes fillup does not happen, due to counterpeak commuters (e.g. McMaster students lucky enough to have cars), leaving ten or twenty spots free midday, but fillup can also be briefly hit, too, at the most inopportune moments, missing the waiting train after I finally find a spot. Happened to me three times already.

Shutting down Aldershot would be crazy unless you built many new fast rail lines and LRTs to reduce the parking load at all the westernmost stations. Not just the Hamilton LRT. And it may still be too slow for many. Spend several (tens?) billion doing that first before shutting down Aldershot, please

I routinely drive from near Hamilton's central Gage Park to Aldershot parking in just 15 minutes. Record is 13 minutes door of home to doors of Aldershot GOtrain. South parking lot (not starion building parking lot) is directly at platform edge of GOtrains. The Main-King crosstown arteries (pair of 5-lane one way streets) has one of Canada's best most impressively synchronized lights so I drive through half the width of lower Hamilton, almost 20 green lights in a row, in just 6 minutes at about ~60kph, from Sherman Avenue all the way to 403 onramp in the west, through the Hamilton downtown core! Once the LRT gets built (if) I would take that instead and not care when the lights get synchronized to the LRT instead (slowing the cars and making storefronts prosper more). And downtown stations I can also easily bike to in the summer, if there were AD2W at one of them.

Yes, I'd rather not take my car. But things currently has made it convenient for me to use it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

GO laid a new track most of the way between Bramalea and Mount Pleasant about a decade ago. The new platform at Brampton, with the other track expansions, should allow GO to run hourly trains to Mount Pleasant, but nothing more than that.

You'd have to move Brampton's historic 1907 GTR station back about 10-15 metres and build a third track from Centre Street to McMurchy Avenue to operate half-hourly trains, though CN might insist on having four tracks through there. I'd expect it would cost $100-200 million easy. Money well spent, but the announcements were focused only on the wholly-owned sections of track.

Ouch! that seems like a lot for just two stations. Maybe in wave two they come up with some money for that because I think Bramalea will be a problem very fast if all day service terminates there for more then 5 years. I used to think Brampton go was the bigger go station but not so much now. Also curious as to why the announcement for the Kitchener line didn't include any mention of hourly service to Mount Pleasant?

I think eliminating Aldershot is a bad idea. GO has to go through there anyway to Hamilton, there is not enough parking at Burlington, I have seen the huge dual Aldershot parking lots (one hour of freeway lane max capacity - 1700 cars). Sometimes I see more people board aldershot than Burlington, depending on the specific morning train. Aldershot become full by 9:45-10:30am, and there is those plots of adjacent land that could eventually be used for development. With 15min service at Burlington, there will be a parking crisis there. Maybe make Burlington a pay lot, and keep Aldershot free or lower price (if free still overflows with 60min service).

With 1700 cars at Aldershot and becoming full, you eliminate a full freeway lane at peak hour (2000ish cars per hour). Might as well expand the freeways... and cancel the demolition of the Gardiner viaduct, too.

All of them, every single one, fill up all parking spots today and the parking demand would become worse with RER. I was lucky to find the last parking spot (after drving through all the rows) when I was delayed at home, and went to Aldershot at 9:55am. And that was the south parking lot, full even after the new spots added. Sometimes fillup does not happen, due to counterpeak commuters (e.g. McMaster students lucky enough to have cars), leaving ten or twenty spots free midday, but fillup can also be briefly hit, too, at the most inopportune moments, missing the waiting train after I finally find a spot. Happened to me three times already.

Shutting down Aldershot would be crazy unless you built many new fast rail lines and LRTs to reduce the parking load at all the westernmost stations. Not just the Hamilton LRT. And it may still be too slow for many. Spend several (tens?) billion doing that first before shutting down Aldershot, please

I routinely drive from near Hamilton's central Gage Park to Aldershot parking in just 15 minutes. Record is 13 minutes door of home to doors of Aldershot GOtrain. South parking lot (not starion building parking lot) is directly at platform edge of GOtrains. The Main-King crosstown arteries (pair of 5-lane one way streets) has one of Canada's best most impressively synchronized lights so I drive through half the width of lower Hamilton, almost 20 green lights in a row, in just 6 minutes at about ~60kph, from Sherman Avenue all the way to 403 onramp in the west, through the Hamilton downtown core! Once the LRT gets built (if) I would take that instead and not care when the lights get synchronized to the LRT instead (slowing the cars and making storefronts prosper more). And downtown stations I can also easily bike to in the summer, if there were AD2W at one of them.

Yes, I'd rather not take my car. But things currently has made it convenient for me to use it.

So, Mr, Rejhon... tell me why they have spent all this money for James North when the Hamilton GO Centre is where they want to terminate service? Not smart. James North is closer to the lake but that's where the parking. Also what plans does the HSR have to get people from Ancaster, Dundas and Glanbrook to the new stations, because as far as I'm aware you have to transfer at least once to get from the suburbs to downtown Hamilton.

 

[Jonny5]

So, Mr, Rejhon... tell me why they have spent all this money for James North when the Hamilton GO Centre is where they want to terminate service? Not smart. James North is closer to the lake but that's where the parking. Also what plans does the HSR have to get people from Ancaster, Dundas and Glanbrook to the new stations, because as far as I'm aware you have to transfer at least once to get from the suburbs to downtown Hamilton.

James North will be for the Niagara service line.

From Ancaster or Dundas you would only need to get to McMaster, and transfer there to a GO train-meet bus bound for Aldershot or Burlington. Though it is unclear how the related bus service will be used going forward. A lot of GO bus trips will be freed up by this expansion and they could easily be re-purposed for new routes. For example Aldershot could easily have a bus connection to the centre of Dundas every hour.

From Glanbrook there is HSR service to downtown Hamilton that passes the Hunter Street GO station already.

 

[salsa]

James North will be for the Niagara service line.

From Ancaster or Dundas you would only need to get to McMaster, and transfer there to a GO train-meet bus bound for Aldershot or Burlington. Though it is unclear how the related bus service will be used going forward. A lot of GO bus trips will be freed up by this expansion and they could easily be re-purposed for new routes. For example Aldershot could easily have a bus connection to the centre of Dundas every hour.

From Glanbrook there is HSR service to downtown Hamilton that passes the Hunter Street GO station already.

Isn't all day GO service eventually to be extended to the planned Confederation GO station once the necessary infrastructure is built?

 

[mdrejhon]

So, Mr, Rejhon... tell me why they have spent all this money for James North when the Hamilton GO Centre is where they want to terminate service? Not smart. James North is closer to the lake but that's where the parking. Also what plans does the HSR have to get people from Ancaster, Dundas and Glanbrook to the new stations, because as far as I'm aware you have to transfer at least once to get from the suburbs to downtown Hamilton.

Isn't all day GO service eventually to be extended to the planned Confederation GO station once the necessary infrastructure is built?

That is what I originally thought so. But it appears Ontario has made downtown Hamilton the AW2D terminus.

It makes sense if they're planning to approve the Hamilton LRT, as that's much easier to transfer from the B-Line. But it is a slower station to reach, and they will need to make some upgrades to minimize interference with freight, possibly a rail-to-rail grade separation, and an extra track right up to near the tunnel.

JamesNorth will also be a great GO station to go to, for residents, being also a walkable location too, and also as a location where they're able to build a parking garage (300 cars), to absorb people who normally drive from other parts of Hamilton to Aldershot (e.g. Hamilton Mountain, etc) and Stoney Creek will probably serve a similiar function, but probably seems it would now initially only get peak-direction service, if the plans are taken to heart.

JamesNorth/Confederation is good for:
- Absorbing the Hamilton drivers (e.g. Hamilton Mountain, people too far from Hamilton LRT)
- Trips coming from Niagara
- If Niagara GO is a separate train, possibly as a future intermodal station between Niagara Express an GO Lakeshore West
- Trips to Niagara (I'm thinking of catching a train from JamesNorth to Niagara Falls this summer)

The split is useful because:
- Drivers can go to JamesNorth
- LRT users can go to downtown Hamilton (closer to proposed Hamilton LRT route)
- Future LRT extensions (BLAST network) could be woken up with the encouragement of LRT + AD2W service.

The JamesNorth station is fairly inexpensive to construct compared to other Metrolinx megaprojects (e.g. Georgetown Corridor, and the LRTs), and it's great pro is being on the route to Niagara and on corridor that has space for a couple more tracks (four tracks instead of two), allowing physical separation of freight. However, it's a 15-min walk from central downtown Hamilton, and it's up to a 20 minute walk away from Hamilton's LRT route. The downtown Hamilton GO building is now owned by Metrolinx (I think) and near the first LRT route, so if they have the ability to push trains hourly to it, it makes a lot of sense to make AD2W the terminal that's easier to reach by LRT, otherwise, there's not enough space in the parking garage (300 cars) at JamesNorth. Aldershot is getting full, so it will divert some drivers from there too, from southwest Mountain and Dundas, catching the train, at least until the proposed (25-year plan, I think) A line LRT goes from JamesNorth, then up to the mountain to James Street South, all the way to the airport. Then we have an interchange between two GO stations, the airport, the west Mountain area, the airport business park. But this isn't going to happen in the next 10 years, while it's theoretically possible to have a B-line crosstown lower city Hamilton LRT running by 2024, which would bring you right within a stone's throw of Hamilton downtown GO.

One side of me, secretly hope Ontario/Metrolinx expects to approve Hamilton LRT eventually, as the rationale for them having decided to make the downtown GO station the diesel AD2W terminus. There is not enough money left for LRT projects, but there's just about enough to approve both Hurontario and Hamilton's LRT. So I'm hoping. It's faster to get trains to JamesNorth, and potentially less interference with timetables with the rest of Lakeshore West, if they started running trains from JamesNorth as the allday terminus. A stuck train (waiting for freight) interferes with the rest of the Lakeshore West stops (and Lakeshore East!) so it's very important for Metrolinx to make sure that the AD2W terminus being moved to Hamilton, has less traffic interference.

Due to these reasons, choosing a slightly less favorable terminal (schedule-wise, trackage-wise) might be an indirect signal that they're planning to approve the Hamilton LRT. Maybe not, but I'm hoping. Some rail work will certainly need to be done to reduce the number of meters that is shared with freight. Heck, they could cut-and-cover and double-track the tunnel within 20 years, if they electricify all the way to Hamilton's downtown (which would make sense in the subsequent 10 year plan, 2025-2034, if Hamilton's LRT is built). Or they might RER-electricify JamesNorth and transfer AD2W service there. Or during RER-ification of the downtown station, this might require temporarily transferring the AD2W service to JamesNorth, so there's a lot more flexibility with having two stations stations in downtown Hamilton. If they decide that RER is easier to JamesNorth, they could build the A-Line LRT on James Street, and relocate AD2W service to JamesNorth in 25 years from now. Who knows? Could even go either way.

It certainly provides more construction flexibility and the ability to play "chicken" with CN / CP -- the one that makes a deal for rail-to-rail separation or track ownership sooner, would potentially influence which station gets improved service in the future. Shutting down Hamilton downtown GO doesn't make sense (due to sheer pedestrian accessibility to Hamilton's growing downtown; a few towers are currently under construction as we speak), but they can switch AD2W between the two stations in a future decade (the other would serve peak-period traffic). There's really strong reasons to have both stations, for extremely different reasons.

I'd love to know what's Ontario thinking (LRT? hopefully!) when they decided to announce downtown Hamilton as the all day terminus! I know I'll be leaving my car at home once AD2W+LRT arrives, as I live one block off the LRT route, and it goes very near Hamilton's downtown GO. If I haven't relocated my job to Hamilton by Year 2024 when all this GO construction is aimed to be done. Color me surprised (and secretly hopeful) that the downtown station was chosen as the AD2W terminus. A quick LRT trip away for me.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

James North will be for the Niagara service line.

From Ancaster or Dundas you would only need to get to McMaster, and transfer there to a GO train-meet bus bound for Aldershot or Burlington. Though it is unclear how the related bus service will be used going forward. A lot of GO bus trips will be freed up by this expansion and they could easily be re-purposed for new routes. For example Aldershot could easily have a bus connection to the centre of Dundas every hour.

From Glanbrook there is HSR service to downtown Hamilton that passes the Hunter Street GO station already.

....

Thanks for the info. So this was about getting some ridership on the LRT, which is fine. But, they should have just acquiesced to CPR then, imo. James North is inexpensive but building it just for Niagara and Rush Hour? With the Layover in the area as well? My problem is, like Jonny5 pointed out, is that the GO buses will be gone as soon as next year if this plan goes into action. HSR should should probably do something soon about that.

 

[mdrejhon]

Thanks for the info. So this was about getting some ridership on the LRT, which is fine. But, they should have just acquiesced to CPR then, imo. James North is inexpensive but building it just for Niagara and Rush Hour? With the Layover in the area as well? My problem is, like Jonny5 pointed out, is that the GO buses will be gone as soon as next year if this plan goes into action. HSR should should probably do something soon about that.

Where does it say that AD2W service begins next year? What I read suggests a longer wait.

 

[44 North]

Maybe the graphic was ripped off from one of 44 North's posts .

Haha, I wish! Though I probably wouldn't have drawn a bilevel EMU. They look too clunky IMO. I think single level trains are way more optimal, not to mention look sleeker.

 

[reaperexpress]

I think eliminating Aldershot is a bad idea. GO has to go through there anyway to Hamilton, there is not enough parking at Burlington.

Again to reiterate, I was never talking about eliminating or shutting down Aldershot. I even bolded "off peak" in my post. I'm talking about a schedule something like this.

I have seen the huge dual Aldershot parking lots (one hour of freeway lane max capacity - 1700 cars). Sometimes I see more people board aldershot than Burlington, depending on the specific morning train. Aldershot become full by 9:45-10:30am, and there is those plots of adjacent land that could eventually be used for development.

This would not be changed by eliminating off-peak service. In fact, if the parking lot fills up completely in the morning, then there isn't currently any possibility to park-and-ride in the midday anyway.

With 15min service at Burlington, there will be a parking crisis there. Maybe make Burlington a pay lot, and keep Aldershot free or lower price (if free still overflows with 60min service).

As far as peak hour demand allocation, I like the idea of diverting demand away from Burlington using parking fees. As for the attractiveness of Burlington's frequent service, my fantasy schedule (linked above) mitigates this issue by having the Burlington local trains be overtaken by an express before Union - therefore there isn't any time savings by using them rather than an express train from Aldershot.

With 1700 cars at Aldershot and becoming full, you eliminate a full freeway lane at peak hour (2000ish cars per hour). Might as well expand the freeways... and cancel the demolition of the Gardiner viaduct, too.

All of them, every single one, fill up all parking spots today and the parking demand would become worse with RER. I was lucky to find the last parking spot (after drving through all the rows) when I was delayed at home, and went to Aldershot at 9:55am. And that was the south parking lot, full even after the new spots added. Sometimes fillup does not happen, due to counterpeak commuters (e.g. McMaster students lucky enough to have cars), leaving ten or twenty spots free midday, but fillup can also be briefly hit, too, at the most inopportune moments, missing the waiting train after I finally find a spot. Happened to me three times already.

These cars are from people who have taken a peak period train toward Toronto. Having off-peak trains skip the station would not affect them.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Where does it say that AD2W service begins next year? What I read suggests a longer wait.

I mean in 3 years.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Harsh words from the Globe editorial board on the RER announcement.

Where’s that $9-billion for Hydro One coming from – and where’s it going?

On Friday, the government announced it would be spending $13.5-billion on a massive expansion of GO Transit. Serving the 905 belt around Toronto, and beyond, the program should leave Liberal politicians smiling. It also appears to use up nearly all of the money the Wynne government earmarked for transit projects. That’s likely to leave many more necessary and cost-effective, but less politically favoured, transit improvements high and dry.

...

It is clear that, while the Toronto Area needs more transit, some parts of the megalopolis – the most urban parts – have by far the greatest demand, and the best business case. For example, on an average business day, Toronto’s busiest subway station serves twice as many passengers as the entire GO train system. But public transit in Ontario is not a business, run on business principles. It’s a political sinkhole, and the great sucking sound is politics.

More often than not, it leads to the Sheppard subway, or ditching a fully-funded Scarborough light rail line in favour of a costly, unnecessary subway. The driving force is not customer demand sufficient to turn a profit. It is voter demand, sufficient to get elected.

It’s enough to drive one to drink. Bottoms up.

 

[Adjei]

Harsh words from the Globe editorial board on the RER announcement.

Where’s that $9-billion for Hydro One coming from – and where’s it going?

I don't get the point of this editorial. Look I support the DRL but investing in GO is more worthwhile than the DRL, we get more bang for our buck. This GO announcement should have been done ages ago but instead we were building subways up on Sheppard and now up to Vaughan. I don't blame the Liberals for investing in GO, you get to serve a greater area of people with transit. I also find it funny how this editorial is most likely alluding to the fact that there was no funding mentioned for the DRL but where were these same people when the province was throwing billions at LRT lines in Toronto? Why weren't they screaming for the money to be used for the DRL? I guess now that the DRL is the flavour of the day, they are screaming mad.

 

[Filip]

I don't get the point of this editorial. Look I support the DRL but investing in GO is more worthwhile than the DRL, we get more bang for our buck. This GO announcement should have been done ages ago but instead we were building subways up on Sheppard and now up to Vaughan. I don't blame the Liberals for investing in GO, you get to serve a greater area of people with transit. I also find it funny how this editorial is most likely alluding to the fact that there was no funding mentioned for the DRL but where were these same people when the province was throwing billions at LRT lines in Toronto? Why weren't they screaming for the money to be used for the DRL? I guess now that the DRL is the flavour of the day, they are screaming mad.

Exactly. GO RER is beyond transformational for Toronto's traffic problems. Our traffic comes from our far flung suburbs, not from inner-city drivers.

 

[CDL.TO]

Always unfortunate to see the Milton line excluded from these kinds of announcements. Yet apparently Mississauga doesn't need a subway because GO can be improved. Mmmhmm.

GO can be improved, it was just be more expensive than the other lines.

So, you're suggesting that since the Milton line will be expensive to improve... we should build an EVEN MORE expensive subway instead?