GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[TOareaFan]

Ah yes ... that was also in today's Toronto Star on the front page of the GTA section.

I thought that was pretty rich coming from Halton, where they don't even run any local transit in Georgetown - but are whining that GO is delaying full-day service on the Kitchener line west of Brampton.

You make a good point...but the spirit of the idea of just saying "no" to mandated growth i think is growing in the populace out there.

Read any of the local papers and it won't be very long before you are confronted with letters/editorials/stories about the problems that growth is generating and the costs associated with growth.

I can't speak to the issues in Halton, specifically, but I know it is a massive problem/issue in Brampton.......we are gonna be 600k people before too long and we can't get all day GO service? and if we can't, can we not get a bit more highway lane space? we can't get more than 550 hospital beds? we can't get a post secondary education institution?

The issues of growth are causing real civic issues in these places and the solutions seem to lie at the Provincial level....and people are probably tired of me harping on about the amount of money spent on GTS but still it only bringing 5 additional return GO train trips a weekday? When I read this article and see GO responding that the Milton line can't get more service until considerable expansion dollars are spent I am reminded of the responses I used to get when I asked about more service on the (then) Georgetown line.....now the money is spent, the service is still not coming.

The same, no local transit argument does not wash in Brampton, surely?

Halton are simply pointing out that the infrastructure is stretched....yet the people with the solutions can only offer excuses while, at the same time, mandating more growth. I think all they are saying is, if the province can't solve the infrastructure problem then fine.....stop mandating growth that just makes the issue more critical......and I have a hard time faulting that.

 

[nfitz]

The same, no local transit argument does not wash in Brampton, surely?

No it doesn't. Though if you look at the changes in the Big Move on the Kitchener line, all that was changed was the all-day service for the single stop from Mount Pleasant to Georgetown!

Halton wants all-day service to Georgetown, when they don't even provide a local bus!

 

[TOareaFan]

According to the article (and others I have read) the timing of the all day service has also changed...pushed out further.

So, what is wrong with the idea of saying "if we can't (for whatever reason(s) ) provide the services needed to support the growth (and as the article states it goes far beyond GO Trains), stop mandating growth until we can."

 

[nfitz]

According to the article (and others I have read) the timing of the all day service has also changed...pushed out further.

Hard to say. They haven't ever been very firm on dates.

So, what is wrong with the idea of saying "if we can't (for whatever reason(s) ) provide the services needed to support the growth (and as the article states it goes far beyond GO Trains), stop mandating growth until we can."

Nothing - however it's very hypocritical to be demanding such services, when the Region has failed to provide even more basic services, that are typically supplied first, and are the Region's responsibility.

 

[TOareaFan]

Hard to say. They haven't ever been very firm on dates.

Nothing - however it's very hypocritical to be demanding such services, when the Region has failed to provide even more basic services, that are typically supplied first, and are the Region's responsibility.

Again, I can't speak for Halton (is transit there regional like York and Durham or is it municipal like in Peel?).....but the issues in Brampton are very real and I am not sure the municipality could have done more. I would hazard a guess that there are not too many cities in Canada (or the further afield in the developed world) operating with 550k citizens and the sort of transit connections and hospital services that Brampton is.

No matter how hard you try to not get all "woe is me" on it you really start to wonder how it got this way......1 hospital bed for every 1,000 citizens in a city that big? 1, 3 lane highway providing the bulk of the road linkage? minimal train service?.....and very little planned that will alleviate it but, still, the province mandates more growth!

 

[nfitz]

Again, I can't speak for Halton (is transit there regional like York and Durham or is it municipal like in Peel?).....but the issues in Brampton are very real ...

The article seems to discuss Halton though, and not Brampton. Is there any indication that 2-way service has been delayed past 2023, which is the only Metrolinx promise I'm aware of.

 

[TOareaFan]

The article seems to discuss Halton though, and not Brampton. Is there any indication that 2-way service has been delayed past 2023, which is the only Metrolinx promise I'm aware of.

I know the article I linked today was about Halton but I was extrapolating on the "stall growth" theme in it and I do believe that it is universal to all of the "underserved" lines. It would seem counter-intuitive for the Province to insist/mandate growth in areas that they admit they can't serve with transit (and other crucial services) to meet current needs.

There was this article a couple of weeks ago http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news/article/1598064--metrolinx-delays-all-day-go-plan-for-brampton The Mayor of Brampton asserting that she had been told it was delayed beyond what she had been promised.

Interestingly, when I sent that link to my MPP all she could say was don't believe the Guardian or the Mayor.....the communication ended when I said that the timelines (ie. no definitive timeline for full service) matched pretty much exactly what GO/Metrolinx had told me when I communicated directly with them.

This sort of thing has really broad implications in an era where we are about to ask/insist that people pay more to provide the infrastructure. I am generally supportive of paying for things (either directly or through my taxes) but when I see the amount of money spent on the KW corridor and see what it yields in terms of additional service (in case you need reminding $1.2B for 5 return trips) I really wonder if it is all worth it and am curious to see how receptive the public at large is to the new "revenue tools".

 

[nfitz]

The Mayor of Brampton asserting that she had been told it was delayed beyond what she had been promised.

There doesn't seem anything to back up her claims though. Not sure the issue here. Brampton is getting the infrastructure that Halton isn't getting, with LRT on Hurontario, BRT on Queen, and increased GO service. Even if it slips a year or two, it's still a huge commitment.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The mayor of brampton said that right after the sunshine report came out and showed her salary. I don't believe her. I think by 2025 at the latest Kitchener will have all day service to Mount Pleasant as planned in the big move.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Until the province has said otherwise offcially,not hearsay, I am sticking with the 2030 big move date.

 

[TOareaFan]

The mayor of brampton said that right after the sunshine report came out and showed her salary. I don't believe her. I think by 2025 at the latest Kitchener will have all day service to Mount Pleasant as planned in the big move.

As for her believability, it mirrors.what Metrolinx have told me (and I am not on the sunshine list nor do I answer to a disgruntled public). They have no defined timeline for all day service and commit only to 5 additional return weekday trips.

Is that the sort of service level that this line warrants based on current populations/densities? Does that justify the amount of money spent? IMO the answer is no on both counts!

2025? With the provincial mandated growth, the population of Brampton will likely be over 700k by then.....is that the benchmark for hourly all day two way service? Or, as Haltom is suggesting, should we just stop the growth till these services can be provided?

 

[nfitz]

As for her believability, it mirrors.what Metrolinx have told me (and I am not on the sunshine list nor do I answer to a disgruntled public). They have no defined timeline for all day service and commit only to 5 additional return weekday trips.

Metrolinx simply doesn't give detailed plans for more than 1-year out. That's what they were saying a year ago about the 30-minute service on Lakeshore line, and suddenly it popped up in their budget.

I wish they were more transparent ... though in reality, who can plan service more than a year in advance. Look at TTC's fail on that, when they promised express bus service on Jane and Don Mills Road that was to start in 2011.

 

[TOareaFan]

Metrolinx simply doesn't give detailed plans for more than 1-year out. That's what they were saying a year ago about the 30-minute service on Lakeshore line, and suddenly it popped up in their budget.

I wish they were more transparent ... though in reality, who can plan service more than a year in advance. Look at TTC's fail on that, when they promised express bus service on Jane and Don Mills Road that was to start in 2011.

They are not shy about talking about the 5 new return trips starting in 2015.....they are positively enthusiastic when asked about those!

So, anyone who repeats what they say (either a concerned taxpayer or a mayor) is spouting unbelievable hearsay......but their vague words should mean it will happen sooner? Bizarrely twisted logic which I, bizarrely, hope is true.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

As for her believability, it mirrors.what Metrolinx have told me (and I am not on the sunshine list nor do I answer to a disgruntled public). They have no defined timeline for all day service and commit only to 5 additional return weekday trips.

Is that the sort of service level that this line warrants based on current populations/densities? Does that justify the amount of money spent? IMO the answer is no on both counts!

2025? With the provincial mandated growth, the population of Brampton will likely be over 700k by then.....is that the benchmark for hourly all day two way service? Or, as Haltom is suggesting, should we just stop the growth till these services can be provided?

Honestly it should be 15 minutes for both Peel and Halton. I would only say Halton would go first because Hamilton is coming on board in 2015 which is around 18 months from now, and they are getting 30. But Brampton should get more then 1tph.

 

[TOareaFan]

There doesn't seem anything to back up her claims though. Not sure the issue here. Brampton is getting the infrastructure that Halton isn't getting, with LRT on Hurontario, BRT on Queen, and increased GO service. Even if it slips a year or two, it's still a huge commitment.

The LRT is only going to Brampton because there is no logical place to end it in Mississauga.....it really is a Mississauga project that stubs into Brampton and, relative to its cost, adds very little useful upgrade to Brampton from a transit perspective.

The increased GO service (as I may have mentioned) is simply not enough for a city this size and growing.....it is also (I may also have mentioned) not a good enough return for the amount of money spent.

We have to move away from just tallying up dollars and saying "they got this spent so we should get the same" and start to look at the utility of the money spent. Brampton (and the whole region) would get far more value from all day GO trains than anything the LRT will provide.......and most of that investment has already been made!