GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[nfitz]

What's the point of doing every 60 minutes to Stouffville and every 2 hours to Old Elm when they are only 2.5 km apart? If Metrolinx were to extend the Stouffville line to Uxbridge, then I could see the need for a separate 2 hour service category.

Demand probably. Back in 2018 (the most recently reported numbers I think), Stouffville had about 630 passengers a day, while Old Elm had about 190. I wonder how many they've projected for hourly service.

 

[reaperexpress]

Off the top of my head, the locations where overhead electric pole bases have been poured include:
- UP Express guideway (2.7 km)

- Barrie Line Davenport flyover (0.7 km)

- Lakeshore East near East Harbour (2.0 km)
- Whitby maintenance yard (across the yard, plus short segments of overhead wire in the doors to the buildings).

There are also overhead wire brackets on the underside of the Rutherford Station pedestrian bridge.

 

[reaperexpress]

Demand probably. Back in 2018 (the most recently reported numbers I think), Stouffville had about 630 passengers a day, while Old Elm had about 190. I wonder how many they've projected for hourly service.

Regardless of the demand, the question is how much money they actually save by turning every second train back at Stouffville. Those trains aren't actually saving any time, because if the 120min Old Elm trains are supposed to be blended with the 120min Stouffville trains to create an hourly service the Stouffville trains just need to sit around for that extra time so they're evenly spaced on the way back south. To reduce the fleet requirement by 1 train, the Stouffville trains would need to save one 120 minutes by short-turning, which is clearly not the case.

 

[legoswmonkey]

There are also overhead wire brackets on the underside of the Rutherford Station pedestrian bridge.

The Drury Lane bridge should also have accommodations for wire if anyone has a good photo.

 

[WB62]

There are also overhead wire brackets on the underside of the Rutherford Station pedestrian bridge.

There are also footings on the platforms of some recently rebuilt stations, ones that come to my mind are Downsview Park, Rutherford, and Maple. I’m sure there are others

 

[PShells]

Demand probably. Back in 2018 (the most recently reported numbers I think), Stouffville had about 630 passengers a day, while Old Elm had about 190. I wonder how many they've projected for hourly service.

Reaper would be the expert on timetables, but my uninformed assumption when I first saw this was going from Stouffville to Old Elm adds like 10+ minutes round trip that perhaps complicates the scheduling downstream. The same way going from Mount Joy to Stouffville adds 20+ minutes round trip.

(But this perhaps irrelevant in an electrified service world).

 

[reaperexpress]

Reaper would be the expert on timetables, but my uninformed assumption when I first saw this was going from Stouffville to Old Elm adds like 10+ minutes round trip that perhaps complicates the scheduling downstream. The same way going from Mount Joy to Stouffville adds 20+ minutes round trip.

(But this perhaps irrelevant in an electrified service world).

It's possible that the extra 10 minutes round trip is just barely enough to tip it over the edge in runtime, but in that case it wouldn't really be 120min service to Old Elm, it would just be sporadic trains throughout the day as they head to and from the yard

 

[ssiguy2]

At this point, I think it's fair to say that ML has no intention of starting any electrification for years or even at all. Hence, GO's best option for now is to go the EDMU locomotive route.

Not 100% clean but still a very marked reduction in both emissions and particulate matter, offer faster de/acceleration, and can offer immediate results as opposed to running on the never-never timeline plan. They don't require any new infrastructure, although recharging at terminus stations is ideal which even ML could swing, require surprisingly little overhaul of the existing locos, and costs nothing as the initial train rehabs and battery costs are quickly recouped by the reduction in fuel costs.

They are an excellent "go between" until the system goes full electric via catenary/battery and take into account that Toronto already has the world's largest fleet of diesel powered DD carriages. It allows those trains to continue to be used and gradually phased out as they enter their end of service life.

 

[chrisw]

Regardless of the demand, the question is how much money they actually save by turning every second train back at Mount Joy. Those trains aren't actually saving any time, because if the 120min Old Elm trains are supposed to be blended with the 120min Mount Joy trains to create an hourly service the Mount Joy trains just need to sit around for that extra time so they're evenly spaced on the way back south. To reduce the fleet requirement by 1 train, the Mount Joy trains would need to save one 120 minutes by short-turning, which is clearly not the case.

Currently we have hourly off-peak to Mount Joy.

First milestone 2 hour off peak to Stouffville. [60 min off peak to Mt Joy]

Second Milestone 60 min off peak to Stouffville. [60 min off peak to Mt Joy]

Third Milestone. 30 min off peak to Mt Joy and 120 min off peak to Old Elm. [60 min off peak to Stouffville]

So, they'll be able to offer hourly off-peak to Stouffville and Mt Joy at the same time.

The 120 min service to Old Elm is combined with 30 min service to Mt Joy. @reaperexpress I can't tell if your comment considered 30 min service to Mt Joy.

They're deciding to install the turnback signal at Stouffville, none at Old Elm (continue to yard).

One answer given by ChatGPT is that Old Elm might be too close to the yard throat. (It's 400m away) Might complicate the signals and possible yard movements? Is that a consideration?

Unionville to Stouffville currently takes 26 mins maybe that's a key threshold.

 

[Sunnyside]

I think you'll eventually get your wish. The "End State Service" proposed in Board Mtg State of the Network presentation retains the existing fleet & diesel traction for services on the KI line to Malton, Bramalea and beyond but has "electric....service with new trains" on all the other lines (including UP Express).
The express services on the KI line would seem to be a good fit for diesel traction and long consists where acceleration isn't so critical, and the 15-min stopping service to Bramalea may use a short consist to achieve better acceleration but will be sharing tracks with the diesel expresses.
View attachment 714399

I found this a particularly informative report on things, moreso than most material I've seen Metrolinx publish. It is much appreciated, as I can much more easily see what and why certain works are being done, and what the 'critical path' is to electrification.

At this point, I think it's fair to say that ML has no intention of starting any electrification for years or even at all. Hence, GO's best option for now is to go the EDMU locomotive route.

Au contraire, I think the goals are the same as they've always been, but Metrolinx is now being more forthright about what is needed to get there. They've done plenty, but they also concede the time and scope of works involved were not or should not have been put to a timeline given how many seperate and contingent pieces there are. I actually care less about the timeline of electrification- Metrolinx was overly ambitious by even setting much of anything into stone at all, it's clearly contingent on a bunch of other things that enable the service levels which justify wires. There are just too many intangibles for anyone to know how the trains will be propelled, without knowing the fleet's needs relative to a given future system state.

In any case, we know what we need to get to electrification as of 2026, and that is very useful. LSW does seem very close to being fully-enabled.

 

[reaperexpress]

Currently we have hourly off-peak to Mount Joy.

First milestone 2 hour off peak to Stouffville. [60 min off peak to Mt Joy]

Second Milestone 60 min off peak to Stouffville. [60 min off peak to Mt Joy]

Third Milestone. 30 min off peak to Mt Joy and 120 min off peak to Old Elm. [60 min off peak to Stouffville]

So, they'll be able to offer hourly off-peak to Stouffville and Mt Joy at the same time.

The 120 min service to Old Elm is combined with 30 min service to Mt Joy. @reaperexpress I can't tell if your comment considered 30 min service to Mt Joy.

They're deciding to install the turnback signal at Stouffville, none at Old Elm (continue to yard).

Sorry, you're correct. I meant Stouffville station, not Mount Joy station. I'll update the post accordingly.

One answer given by ChatGPT is that Old Elm might be too close to the yard throat. (It's 400m away) Might complicate the signals and possible yard movements? Is that a consideration?

Unionville to Stouffville currently takes 26 mins maybe that's a key threshold.

Answers given by ChatGPT are useles unless you confirm the information using the source (if any) that ChatGPT used to invent its answer.

 

[smallspy]

One answer given by ChatGPT is that Old Elm might be too close to the yard throat. (It's 400m away) Might complicate the signals and possible yard movements? Is that a consideration?

The end of the signalled section of the Uxbridge Sub is at the interlocking called Lincolnville, which is immediately south of the level crossing of Bethesda Sideroad. North of that signal is rule 105 track.

That the platform at Old Elm is immediately south of the plant simplifies turnback operations. Another plant immediately south of the platform would simplify it even more. There would not be a need to run trains into the yard to turn them around.

Dan