GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[urbanclient]

im going to pipe in here.

@Urban Sky if you insist this is unprecendented. Instead of comparing to Sydney which urbanclient has done and attempted to refute.

can you respond to why specifically this is unprecedented? Metrolinx has continuously under promised and underdelivered. Adding a single track to hundreds km of existing railway where you already have ROW? Why is this so hard?
Recent MX board meetings have talked about "green and red zones". again, brand new expanded railway where you have so much room right?
Define "ambitious". Why specifically is this so hard? we have talked in this thread of "stringing wires up" why is this so hard and difficult? what makes it worth scaling down?
These 250 million grade separations are a bit ridiculous don't you think? Skipping Grand Separations are a massive limitation on the service, right?
Why are we excusing these excessive cost increases? These contractors are singlehandedly causing MX to scale back a program that

Again, We know you know alot, but sometimes a small piece of insider information settles alot of disscusion

I just want the GTHA to get better transit. I have experienced first hand how great transit can be abroad. Whether I am individually right or wrong doesn't matter. What matters is that hopefully we all get better transit in Ontario soonish and we keep Metrolinx honest. I think I speak for at least some of us here when I say that we don't buy into nebulous excuses e.g. overambition for why exactly the GO Expansion has hit such a large setback. Pure Speculation: Perhaps austerity from the provincial government is one of things holding the project back. The Ontario government is facing a per-capita tax revenue decline in the short-term: https://budget.ontario.ca/2025/chapter-3.html

 

[ARG1]

Read about the Sydney Metro, considering the fact that the provincially funded GO Expansion has been descoped to ~100km of Lakeshore West and East, then yes, that 113km project is in fact larger than GO Expansion and has both larger station count and track length than GO Expansion.

Correction: It has been descoped to ~100km of Lakeshore assuming that any and all funding is cut off immediately, and Metrolinx only has whatever they have already been given to work with.

 

[crs1026]

Does anyone have actual documentation or reliable source information of the degree of descoping or defunding that has been actioned?
It seems to be assumed everywhere, and I give the statement credibility, but it would be helpful to be talking about actual details.
As for the magnitude of the initiative… I note that Ontario is procuring new nuclear plants. We need to solve this transparency thing, fast.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

im going to pipe in here.

@Urban Sky if you insist this is unprecendented. Instead of comparing to Sydney which urbanclient has done and attempted to refute.

can you respond to why specifically this is unprecedented? Metrolinx has continuously under promised and underdelivered. Adding a single track to hundreds km of existing railway where you already have ROW? Why is this so hard?
Recent MX board meetings have talked about "green and red zones". again, brand new expanded railway where you have so much room right?
Define "ambitious". Why specifically is this so hard? we have talked in this thread of "stringing wires up" why is this so hard and difficult? what makes it worth scaling down?
These 250 million grade separations are a bit ridiculous don't you think? Skipping Grade Separations are a massive limitation on the service, right?
Why are we excusing these excessive cost increases? These contractors are singlehandedly causing MX to scale back a program that

Again, We know you know alot, but sometimes a small piece of insider information settles alot of disscusion

The works along Lakeshore East give some idea. Raising the downtown bridges to the current standard of 5.0 meters clearance rather than adding a span to each was likely not in the original scope. The raising of the bridges will mean fewer bridge strikes by construction and other vehicles passing under them, and thus fewer interruptions to the railway by needing inspections before resuming service. We will have a better railway because of it since these fully new bridges will have a long period before needing major work, and the removal and replacement of the tracks will have given an opportunity to address any issues with ballast, drainage etc., possibly even identify issues which would impact ETCS work.

Similarly, adjoining properties will have noise walls where previously these would have been deemed frills, and similarly culverts and embankments may have had work triggered to bring them to current standards not required by the existing.

As for the wires, yes, other than overbridges and grade crossings, these are nominally not a big deal, but the transformers and other gear which provide 25,000V AC to those wires are a big deal, since sites have to be identified at the needed intervals which are also suitable for connection to the applicable Hydro transmission stations. Any of us who have followed the infra threads here relating to transmission projects knows that doesn’t happen overnight.

This is not to excuse Metrolinx. Those who have observed American projects will have noted a degree of candour in their documentation which MLX does not employ, in part due to stronger public records laws. To some extent, removing DB from the equation may make it harder for Metrolinx to hide behind commercial confidentiality, but the financial barrier of “FOIA if you want to know” remains.

As for demanding insider information from forum members, I would imagine that as a highly politically monitored organization, it’s not like any role in Metrolinx, particularly a contractor, is going to have access to the entirety of the org’s strategic thinking, and even if they had some level, nothing on this forum is important enough for people to jeopardize current and future employment.

 

[ssiguy2]

Let's try to cool down the conversation guys and if you have personal issues without another member then perhaps those should be taken up directly with a moderator and/or done thru private messages.

I think one thing we can ALL agree upon is that Metrolinx has shown itself over the last decade to be shockingly incompetent, corrupt, and completely unaccountable to the general public. What has REALLY ticks me off is that along with this, they have been lying thru their collective teeth to the long suffering Toronto commuters. After a decade of endless proclamations of how much faster and more reliable their new electric trains will be, they only managed to tell the public a few months ago. When they tell everyone that electrification is coming by 2026 and have yet to manage to put up a single pole, they knew YEARS ago that is wasn't going to happen and yet told absolutely no one. That is NOT oversight but bold faced lying.

Due to this, if they don't start battery train testing, Torontonians better get use to the idea that they will not be boarding an electric train within the decade. If it's effective and reliable enough for systems with huge commuter service like Metra and LIRR, it's good enough for Toronto. The fact that BEV is not even being talked about by ML exemplifies how little they actually care about electrification itself.

 

[WB62]

The fact that BEV is not even being talked about by ML exemplifies how little they actually care about electrification itself.

 

[ARG1]

Does anyone have actual documentation or reliable source information of the degree of descoping or defunding that has been actioned?
It seems to be assumed everywhere, and I give the statement credibility, but it would be helpful to be talking about actual details.
As for the magnitude of the initiative… I note that Ontario is procuring new nuclear plants. We need to solve this transparency thing, fast.

- Paul

I'm not going to directly name the source, other than it comes from the same person that provided that screenshot of the current electrification plans that only had LSW/LSE/UP electrified by 2036 - the same screenshot that many on here are using to claim that GO Expansion is ABD. If you believe the screenshot, you also need to believe the stipulation that came with it. If you don't (which is a perfectly acceptable position to have), then we don't know anything new of substance.

 

[generalcanada]

I'm not going to directly name the source, other than it comes from the same person that provided that screenshot of the current electrification plans that only had LSW/LSE/UP electrified by 2036 - the same screenshot that many on here are using to claim that GO Expansion is ABD. If you believe the screenshot, you also need to believe the stipulation that came with it. If you don't (which is a perfectly acceptable position to have), then we don't know anything new of substance.

How Metrolinx’s plan to deliver European-style train service went off the rails

GO Expansion will still transform Greater Golden Horseshoe transit — but likely won’t be as ambitious as what was planned just three years ago

www.thetrillium.ca

Its not a secret source since it came from this.

Whats the "stipulation"?

 

[urbanclient]

Does anyone have actual documentation or reliable source information of the degree of descoping or defunding that has been actioned?
It seems to be assumed everywhere, and I give the statement credibility, but it would be helpful to be talking about actual details.
As for the magnitude of the initiative… I note that Ontario is procuring new nuclear plants. We need to solve this transparency thing, fast.

- Paul

Tried replying earlier, seconding what @generalcanada said, we are all going off this article from the Trillium that came out after news broke about DB's operations contract being terminated.

How Metrolinx’s plan to deliver European-style train service went off the rails

GO Expansion will still transform Greater Golden Horseshoe transit — but likely won’t be as ambitious as what was planned just three years ago

www.thetrillium.ca

This screenshot comes from the Trillium article:

Also, here is Reece Martin's blog post in reaction to said Trillium article:

Toronto: A Huge Setback for the Greatest Transit Project in Canadian History, and How to Save It

The hardest post I've ever written.

nextmetro.substack.com

My favourite excerpt from Reece:
"[...] but Metrolinx wasn’t a good customer and seemed unwilling to do the necessary work to run a boldly expanded railway. They seemed to not want to change how things work, but then they want to run many times more trains! It’s also clear that the organization did not have broad buy in — if people don’t understand, or want to understand how modern high capacity railways work, they shouldn’t be working on a system that is trying to become one! It of course couldn’t have helped that there wasn’t a clear, and public facing plan to build from and point to — or seemingly in depth knowledge of what other places do. Just “look Sydney and Paris have trains with wires!”

All in all, the article is good, but depressing. Its hard not to feel like years (and probably lots of money) are going down the drain, probably in large part because of hubris and incuriosity, and I’m not going to lie — this sucks. But, I think the bigger question it poses is… where do we go from here?"

 

[ssiguy2]

WB62..........appreciate the feedback but I wasn't talking about battery locomotives but rather battery EMUs which is why I used the UPX as a great place to test them.

If ML keeps on it's never-never plan, they should just buy all new electric trains for the RER sections and keep the monster diesel locos for more long distance and express services. ML can phase them out as their life span starts to come to an end. They could also sell the coaches as most are in good repair as well as the locos as they are Tier 4 which would make them appealable to new buyers.

 

[ARG1]

How Metrolinx’s plan to deliver European-style train service went off the rails

GO Expansion will still transform Greater Golden Horseshoe transit — but likely won’t be as ambitious as what was planned just three years ago

www.thetrillium.ca

Its not a secret source since it came from this.

Whats the "stipulation"?

That's not the source I was referring to.

 

[Allandale25]

I'm getting a little lost on what people are debating here over multiple pages. Is it just whether the Province will actually follow through on electification and it will start with just LSW and LSE?

 

[Bojaxs]

But, I think the bigger question it poses is… where do we go from here?"

We improve and maximize GO train service using the existing diesel fleet.

- Widen corridors/ lay down more tracks
- improve the flow of trains at Union
- build more grade separations
- continue negotiating with Class 1 freights to allow for improved GO train service on their tracks

What else can we do? The infrastructure to supply GO transit with electricity to power electric trains hasn't been built yet (transformers, storage, etc.), and will probably take a decade or more to construct.

 

[ssiguy2]

I'm getting a little lost on what people are debating here over multiple pages. Is it just whether the Province will actually follow through on electification and it will start with just LSW and LSE?

The reason this is an issue is that Queen's Park has already provided tons of money that could have gone towards electrification but ML decided to use that money to build palatial parking garages and not even charge a plug nickel to use them. This is not only shocking incompetence and an insult to transit users but also exemplifies how ML never took electrification seriously in the first place.

Now the damage has been done and ML cannot expect ever more funding because they blew the money they were already given. Luckily, they still have some revenue options. The first is that they should start charging for parking to bring in a constant operational revenue stream. Second, they should sell off ALL surface parking lots to developers for infrastructure funding and ML is sitting on a whopping amount of money thru all the land it owns around the station. This of course has the added benefit of providing much needed housing and creates TOD around the train stations themselves creating even more demand for their services. Such developments would also not have to deal with NIMBYs and endless bureaucracy because no one is going to decry the lose of ugly endless surface parking lots. The cities themselves would also love it because all these new housing units and commercial spaces would bring in tons of new property tax revenue.

Creating new charges for parking and putting the surface parking lots on the market could be something they could do tomorrow with a stroke of a pen.

 

[ssiguy2]

This just in yesterday.......................Wellington NZ has just ordered a fleet of battery trains from Alstom. The cost will be CDN$ 1 billion which includes 18 5 car trains and maintenance for 35 years. They will be replacing the current diesel powered locos currently used and will begin delivery in 2028 and finish by 2029 to meet Wellington's goal of having carbon neutral operations by 2029. They will be plying the VERY hilly terrain that takes in Wellington's suburbs.

ML will probably proclaim that Toronto can't do it because NZ is in the Southern Hemisphere and hence batteries work differently there. Sounds nuts but it really wouldn't surprise me.