Kyle Campbell
Active Member
Because the electrification project will inevitably be delayed, cancelled by a change in government, vastly overrun the budget, etc. A plan B that involves less infrastructure might make the the RER a reality sooner
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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
Because the electrification project will inevitably be delayed, cancelled by a change in government, vastly overrun the budget, etc. A plan B that involves less infrastructure might make the the RER a reality sooner
mdrejhon
Senior Member
That makes sense. I imagine this will be a mature technology by 2031-2041 where Hamilton 15-min RER is targeted.
That long catenary run Union-Aldershot is probably far more than plenty time to recharge sufficiently enough for off-catenary run Aldershot-Hamilton.
Considering it'll be about 3 hours of charging time (Aldershot -> Oakville -> Aldershot) to gain 15 minutes of off-cat for Hamilton 15-min RER. Unless they're going to use the battery for the Bowmanville runs too, but that still probably appears doable, too.
That said, when I said 15+15min, I meant motion time. There'd be many hours of stationary standby (e.g. running air conditioners, electricals, etc).
But yes, emergency crawl capability will be desired. Probably not hard to do with a small generator. And we need a way to heat up the battery (after extended freeze) to prevent cold-weather battery life problems. Not a problem pre-heating the battery during the catenary run, the battery won't instantly go freezing 15 minutes off-cat even at -40C, but if the train get stuck off-cat all day (e.g. freight train derailment) it'll be useful to have a generator to heat the battery and power the coach heaters.
Plenty of time to mature this tech by 2030s, and I think that's really doable considering the feats of Tesla. It's only 15 minutes of battery time needed.
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yrt+viva=1system
Senior Member
Not exactly hydrogen related but does relate to electrification and the possibility of seeing another future Bombardier order.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/busine...ombardier-trains-makes-maiden-voyage/43929882
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/busine...ombardier-trains-makes-maiden-voyage/43929882
smallspy
Senior Member
The vast majority of the delays with the introduction of the FV-Dosto's have a lot more to do with Switzerland's accessibility lobby than it does with Bombardier. They've had at least two lawsuits thrown out, but not after causing delays reaching into years.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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dowlingm
Senior Member
Yeah about that http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...varail-releases-report-into-d-train-fire.html
Now someone did go ahead and order some anyway http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...w/d-trains-ordered-for-bedford-bletchley.html
but let's not pretend that the UK's standards for mainline trains are something you can cut and paste onto GO Transit's situation
ssiguy2
Senior Member
There is also a new technology option called "Railbaar". It uses smaller trains but are battery operated but there are permanent large recharging at each station by raising and lowering the pantograph.. They use supercapacators and only take a mere 30 seconds to FULLY recharge. In other words, every time they leave a station after regular stoppage they go to the next station. They are more "tram" like for now and have a top speed of just 70km/hr but I'm sure that will increase greatly. After leaving the station they can run up to 4km on battery and then recharge at the next station etc.
The benefit is that not only are they MUCH cheaper and faster to install than catenary but also the batteries are much smaller and far lighter than standard long-range batteries. The first system is already up and running in Huai'an China and Luxembourg's new system. Auckland is also looking at the them.
The benefit is that not only are they MUCH cheaper and faster to install than catenary but also the batteries are much smaller and far lighter than standard long-range batteries. The first system is already up and running in Huai'an China and Luxembourg's new system. Auckland is also looking at the them.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Be aware of this, albeit as an electronic technologist working with these for generations, I have concerns. Like a mechanical flywheel, there's a tendency for these to 'fly apart' due to the massive forces stored in them. Perhaps that's been addressed, but I remain concerned and skeptical. Siemens have an excellent reputation, perhaps they have these in 'bomb proof' containers: (It's not by chance that early nuclear bombs were detonated by using super caps to propel fissile material into a critical mass)
What I will add is that caps are much more efficient at storing energy (at least in the shorter term) than batteries, which not only degrade with each charge/discharge cycle, they also dissipate a lot of the operation in heat and vented gases. But at least batteries release that energy in a more incremental way.
i-phone batteries catching fire is nothing compared to what would happen with wide distribution of super-caps.
The same problem applies to Hydrogen storage, something that Hydrail proponents claim is addressed....yeah...in a perfect world. There's a reason gas propelled vehicles are banned in many places.
https://www.greenoptimistic.com/sie...-supercapacitor-storage-in-portland-20130607/
What I will add is that caps are much more efficient at storing energy (at least in the shorter term) than batteries, which not only degrade with each charge/discharge cycle, they also dissipate a lot of the operation in heat and vented gases. But at least batteries release that energy in a more incremental way.
i-phone batteries catching fire is nothing compared to what would happen with wide distribution of super-caps.
The same problem applies to Hydrogen storage, something that Hydrail proponents claim is addressed....yeah...in a perfect world. There's a reason gas propelled vehicles are banned in many places.
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Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Honestly think about when you are going out to buy your first vehicle, are you going to look at different kinds of exotic hybrid/electric/etc cars or are you just going to get a regular reliable vehicle to start.
This is where we are with GO Electrification. We are just getting our first TRUE interurban rail system and suddenly we are gazing lovingly at new technologies like hydrogen, etc, etc. Lets just get the system up and running with a reliable tried and true technology and hey, in 20 - 40 years when the infrastructure would need maintenance who knows what new technology would be emerging at that time.
This is where we are with GO Electrification. We are just getting our first TRUE interurban rail system and suddenly we are gazing lovingly at new technologies like hydrogen, etc, etc. Lets just get the system up and running with a reliable tried and true technology and hey, in 20 - 40 years when the infrastructure would need maintenance who knows what new technology would be emerging at that time.
raptor
Senior Member
Except that they committed for electrification by 2025
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Metrolinx has repeatedly stated that the RFP for electrification will allow the proponent to choose the type of technology, or some sort of hybrid. I fully expect all bids to select traditional electrification due to the risks in Hydrogen. At most we may see some hydrogen test trains running on some of the portions of the network not planned for electrification.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I am glad Ontario is looking at Hyrail and not because I think it's necessarily the best choice. It may or may not be and that's up to the potential construction/operational companies to decide.
The point is that this has brought a very pertinent conversation to the forefront.......is catenary the best option? If it is than by all means go ahead but at the time when announced it was really the only option and this has changed therefore so should the proposal process. Just because something was the best {and effectively only} choice of action in the 20th century doesn't mean it will be for the 21st. Remember the decision of electrification was about 2005 and by the time RER is up and running, that will be a 20 years gap and a LOT in transportation has changed in that time, and when considering the huge amount being spent, it would be short sighted and extremely irresponsible of Metrolinx not to consider alternatives.
Metrolinx has been very clear that regardless of the technology be that catenary, battery, or hydrogen, will be up and running by 2025 and all proposals will have to have that timeline in stone in order to get approved so this is not "stalling" at all. New technologies should not be embraced as a fad and for the sole purpose of being the first one's on the block to use them and the novelty factor. Conversely they shouldn't be viewed with fear and something that makes you go screaming into the night. This is nothing but good news as it allows Metrolinx to consider more options than it once had and the more options the more a long-term and reasoned decision can be made with confidence.
The point is that this has brought a very pertinent conversation to the forefront.......is catenary the best option? If it is than by all means go ahead but at the time when announced it was really the only option and this has changed therefore so should the proposal process. Just because something was the best {and effectively only} choice of action in the 20th century doesn't mean it will be for the 21st. Remember the decision of electrification was about 2005 and by the time RER is up and running, that will be a 20 years gap and a LOT in transportation has changed in that time, and when considering the huge amount being spent, it would be short sighted and extremely irresponsible of Metrolinx not to consider alternatives.
Metrolinx has been very clear that regardless of the technology be that catenary, battery, or hydrogen, will be up and running by 2025 and all proposals will have to have that timeline in stone in order to get approved so this is not "stalling" at all. New technologies should not be embraced as a fad and for the sole purpose of being the first one's on the block to use them and the novelty factor. Conversely they shouldn't be viewed with fear and something that makes you go screaming into the night. This is nothing but good news as it allows Metrolinx to consider more options than it once had and the more options the more a long-term and reasoned decision can be made with confidence.
muller877
Senior Member
There is also the danger of ice storms and the resilience of the overhead wires. You either aggressively maintain (i.e. prune or cut down) trees along the corridor or there is a high risk that the overhead will fail in winter storms.
And the tree-huggers will protest every time Metrolinx comes to cut down a tree.
smallspy
Senior Member
They've never said anything any time Metrolinx, CN or CP have done it before. And in the case of CN and CP, they have been forced to a number of times by Transport Canada.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
steveintoronto
Superstar
^Not to mention that all northern European nations with harsher climate than much of southern Canada use electric propulsion via catenary in even their most northern regions, and have done so for over a century.
Luossajärvi Map - Norrbotten County, Sweden - Mapcarta
Mapcarta
Kiruna Station in arctic Lapland
Unlike internal combustion, battery or fuel cell supplied power, catenary supplied electric propulsion is actually more efficient in sub-freezing weather, bearing design permitting.
Luossajärvi Map - Norrbotten County, Sweden - Mapcarta
Mapcarta
Kiruna Station in arctic Lapland
Unlike internal combustion, battery or fuel cell supplied power, catenary supplied electric propulsion is actually more efficient in sub-freezing weather, bearing design permitting.
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crs1026
Superstar
The need to trim and remove trees was raised by City staff at this week’s town hall. I expected there would be screams from the audience. There were none. It was clear that the community desperately wants these lines electrified to get rid of the noise from diesels. Not to say it won’t come up again closer to actual cutting, and not to say that people will be pleased with the visual impact of the wires, but can’t say nobody warned folks.
The concern that downed trees are an operating risk hasn’t stopped anyone else around the world. I wouldn’t consider it a showstopper. If the west end residents were told that hydrail is quieter than electric, however, there might be a push for that, but I’m not sure that a loco sized hydrail unit would be any quieter than an electric, what with the need to cool both traction motors and batteries.
- Paul