GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[W. K. Lis]

at this critical juncture, the govt has no right to dangle with long term future of our infrastructure based on ideoligical principles and unproven tech.
weve got nothing to show for and our network is nowhere near the point where we can risk money and resources to try this novelty. perhaps when hydrogen has been fully developed and utilized by more developed networks
long term would this be something to look at.

Let's see. Edison perfected his incandescent light bulb by 1882, staying lit more than 1200 hours. Consolidated Edison was wiring lower Manhattan around the same year, 1882. See link and link.

Guess Edison should have waited till his light bulb could much, much more than a 1200 hours before wiring New York City.

 

[robmausser]

A low-risk proposition would be to target Bowmanville, Niagara, Richmond Hill and Milton for Hydrogen conversion, while proceeding full speed with electrification on Lakeshore, Stouffville, Barrie, and Bramalea. That would allow new equipment (EMU and/or Electric locos) to be procured now, freeing up existing stock to backstop the hydrogen fleet until its effectiveness is proven. As for Kitchener, the procurement might be held in abeyance while the bypass is being built.

- Paul

Agree, why don't they continue with electrification overhead that they are planning, and use the Hydrogen trains as an experiment on the two lines they aren't planning to electrify: Milton and Richmond Hill.

 

[cplchanb]

Agree, why don't they continue with electrification overhead that they are planning, and use the Hydrogen trains as an experiment on the two lines they aren't planning to electrify: Milton and Richmond Hill.

If we had the capital to run both programs without risking the overall timeframe sure....but reality is we dont and we need every dollar to keep this running to schedule...ESPECIALLY since this govt will fall next year

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Quick question but does electrification mean that they will buy all new train sets or would they just replace the current fleet of diesel engines with electric ones?

 

[ssiguy2]

I don't think these Hyrail trains are any threat to RER electrification. These are trains with only 300 crush capacity and 150 seats...........hardly sufficient on busy lines.

They could however be very good on certain routes. Shorter r connecting routes where the ridership is there but the expense of electrification could not be justified ie Peterborough/Midtown, or commuter routes in other cities like Hamilton/Brantford, Hamilton/Niagara, London/St.Thomas, London/Woodstock, Ottawa/Smith Falls, Stratford/Kitchener/Guelph, Barrie/Orillia, Windsor/Leamington. This may come as a surprise but not all commuters in Ontario live in or are going to Toronto. These kinds of smaller, zero polluting vehicles maybe just what the doctor ordered.

It is however worth looking into as a trial and the UPX would be an ideal candidate. God knows they couldn't be worse than the tanks they use now, frequency could increase, and unlike the current trains, the new zero polluting Hyrail would be welcomed with open arms by Westonians. I'm sure Alstom would jump at the chance of offering a train free for a 6 month trial at the prospect of getting a potential large order from Ontario and it would showcase Ontario's hydrogen technology field as the trains use hydrogen technology provided by Hydrogenics, a Mississauga company. It could kick start a new economic field in Ontario and still keep RER electrification on-track.

 

[crs1026]

I think it's worth exploring some more to see the motives at play- and whether or not this has the workings of yet another "Del Duca Stations" written on it.

A guy I know muttered recently something along the lines of "the Wynne cabinet is so weary of the word 'electricity' that they would rather cancel programs than turn on a single light bulb....." . The comment was in another context not related to GO trains, but perhaps it applies.

Perhaps DD's influence in his Cabinet has slipped, and some other Minister had made inroads into the rather extensive allotment for transit capital. Or, perhaps DD is scavenging his own budget to stretch out a few more promises before the election. Either way, this reeks of desperation and not vision.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

Quick question but does electrification mean that they will buy all new train sets or would they just replace the current fleet of diesel engines with electric ones?

ML has made a lot of noise about EMU's (self-propelled railcars) but some proportion of peak trains would make more sense as existing bilevels pulled by electric loco's. So, yes and yes. Hopefully that would mean the existing fleet would be used for its full life cycle (which is pretty long, the oldest bilevels in service date from 1978 and are still going strong!). No good reason to waste the investment to date in the bilevel fleet.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

Agree, why don't they continue with electrification overhead that they are planning, and use the Hydrogen trains as an experiment on the two lines they aren't planning to electrify: Milton and Richmond Hill.

I expect this is tabled as a Kitchener line solution.

$6B to purchase a few km of track in order to install electrification is a very high price. They don't need the whole CN-407 bypass if they ditch the overhead catenary component.

 

[salsa]

This has FAIL written all over it. An unproven technology which nobody is willing to adopt but somehow these morons are willing to adopt it. It will end up taking twice as long and cost 2 times as expensive as electrification.

This is just another contribution to the provincial government's long history of fucking up Toronto transit with unnecessary technology.

 

[cplchanb]

I expect this is tabled as a Kitchener line solution.

$6B to purchase a few km of track in order to install electrification is a very high price. They don't need the whole CN-407 bypass if they ditch the overhead catenary component.

its high but at least its a sure price. they are asking for a blank cheque and blank timetable with this hydrorail thing...

 

[rbt]

its high but at least its a sure price. they are asking for a blank cheque and blank timetable with this hydrorail thing...

It's only a blank cheque if you expect them to follow through on it.

Run hourly diesels with a pledge to continue researching alternatives, then toss $100M at hydrorail with a progress report expected in 4 years. Let he next government kill it after little to no progress is made.


How's the Tier-4 Diesel program working? They were expecting 16 engine deliveries in 2017 but I've not seen any with the extended engine housing in operation.

 

[cplchanb]

It's only a blank cheque if you expect them to follow through on it.

Run hourly diesels with a pledge to continue researching alternatives, then toss $100M at hydrorail with a progress report expected in 4 years. Let he next government kill it after little to no progress is made.


How's the Tier-4 Diesel program working? They were expecting 16 engine deliveries in 2017 but I've not seen any with the extended engine housing in operations.

Right now they need to put on blinders to keep them focused 100% on building up the network. these side pet projects are unaffordable both in time and money. all it takes for a weed to grow is an unchecked seed.
check out how that went in scarborough (extreme i admit but same principle)

 

[Allandale25]

Speaking of hydrogen, I saw this news today via Railway Gazette.

Hydrogen fuel cell multiple-units ordered
23 Oct 2017

GERMANY: Niedersachsen transport authority LNVG has announced an order for Alstom to supply 14 hydrogen fuel cell multiple-units, with options for 33 more.

The initial batch of units is to be deployed on Weser-Elbe services between Cuxhaven, Bremerhaven, Bremervörde and Buxtehude.

The contract has been awarded to a consortium of Alstom and hydrogen supplier Linde through a negotiated procedure, because LNVG wishes to use fuel cell vehicles in preference to diesel units and believes Alstom is currently the only company in the world which can offer suitable rolling stock that is fully-developed for passenger use.

Alstom presented its prototype two-car Coradia iLint multiple-unit at InnoTrans in September 2016, and test running began in April. The prototype is expected to begin carrying passengers in early 2018. The unit has been developed as part of the German national hydrogen and fuel cell technology programme, and incorporates roof-mounted fuel cells from Hydrogenics, Xperion storage tank, Akasol underfloor batteries. and Selectron control systems.

The consortium of Alstom and Linde will be responsible for the supply, maintenance and fuelling of the LNVG units throughout their life, as patented technology is involved.

The Coradia iLint was described in more detail in the March 2017 issue of Railway Gazette International magazine, which subscribers can access in the digital archive.

 

[drum118]

The question related to Railway Gazette is how long can the train be and is there plan for DD cars?? I haven't seen anything than 4 single level cars so far as a train.

This will work for UPX since they only run 1 or 2 3 car trains at this time.

Depending on cost for these trains, it could spell the end of the idea of electrifying the system and saving money.

Until all these questions are answers, a timetable when you can have trains to replace the current fleet, straight ahead electrifying the system to get EMU up and running by 2024 or sooner.

As for GO new Loco's, not a single word on them considering there about 9 week left for this year and and a test unit hasn't been sent to TTCI for testing yet.

Like Europe, you can use an EMU car to pull trains, but for X cars which will mean an extra car or 2 for the current fleet until true EMU trains start replacing the current fleet. Once the current fleet start hitting the end of the line, most will see the scrap yard since there will be few buyers wanting them, other than the 4000's series and the 300's.

 

[ssiguy2]

This is just another contribution to the provincial government's long history of fucking up Toronto transit with unnecessary technology.

Why would you say that? These are trains of only 150 seats..............not even remotely close to what RER and GO commuter will need on their main routes. These would be ideal for other lightly used routes in Toronto and the rest of Ontario. If, for example, they want to try out the Midtown/Peterborough route they will have to do so with either diesel or non-polluting very quiet Hyrail. Which would you rather have going by your house?

The UPX is a great pace to see whether these trains are worth the investment and it would be years before they order and get them and by then Toronto can see the issues with the trains by the German experience which will already be up and running. Alstom would jump at the chance of lending Toronto a train for 6 months for increased frequency on the UPX and that sure as hell beats the alternative of having to buy another diesel train. Toronto is the ONLY city on the entire planet that runs diesel trains to it's airport.

Get a trial going and see how they perform. If they turn out to be duds or just not what Toronto or other Ontario needs then no harm done. They could however be exactly what's need in other cities or off-peak. Choice is always a good thing.