ssiguy2
Senior Member
I most certainly agree that having excellent bus connection to the GO stations is paramount but that won't do any good if people simply can't afford to take the GO.
The province isn't going to spend $16 billion building a modern regional rapid transit system just to hobble it by keeping the fare structure from the 1960s.RER does have the ability to be a truly transformative transit project and more so than the OL, subway expansions, and new LRT lines combined. The system could fundamentally change how Torontonians {and everyone in the Golden Horseshoe for that matter} move across the region.
The one thing that will hold it back however is a whopper...............fares. Unless they create a whole new fare structure and complete fare integration a la Board of Trade proposal, it will be nothing more than a hyper expensive project that in the end will make little difference to most and be nothing more than a somewhat better service that they have now but WAY short of transformative. GO could, within 20 years, surpass all subway ridership including the OL and extensions. In many cities in the world with newer and/or limited subway system like Toronto, suburban rail having higher ridership than their respective subway/Metro systems is the norm not the exception.
If GO doesn't, at a bare minimum, triple it's current ridership by 2030 and double it again by 2040, then it will be the fault of Metrolinx and poor fare integration and low frequency and not due to no latent demand for the service.
The thing is an economic recession is the perfect time to be taking on debt, because that's when government funding is the most needed in terms of revitalizing the economy and making sure the economy doesn't take too bad of a nasty hit. One of the best things you can do is create a ton of low skill jobs specifically for public good projects such as highways or railroads so that not only do you come out of the recession with a ton of infrastructure that benefits your citizen during a time of economic prosperity, but that you offered a ton of unemployed people a way to make money during a time of low unemployment that they can then spend on goods in services, which in turn let's those business hire new people and create a positive reinforcement effect. Unfortunately Ontario and Canada have arguably spent too much money over the past decade during economic prosperity so now getting into even further debt is a massive concern.Adding more and more debt, what could go wrong lol
I know not all debt is bad as long as it's used to build something useful. For example, taking on debt to build infrastructure or increase productive capacity. Certainly better than plowing borrowed money into stocks or real estate. But this "we can pay for anything by expanding monetary supply" newfangled dogma needs to go away.
Yes and no. GO's ridership is mostly made up of people that have cars and that park and ride at GO station, that much is true, but that's only true because the market GO currently serves is the middle to upper middle class commuter that works at Bay Street or some tech company in the CBD. GO in its current form is still primarily a commuter rail system that gets people into the CBD at morning rush hour, and out of the CBD into the suburbs during afternoon rush hour.I don't think that's accurate. Most current TTC (and obviously GO) riders have access to a car. If you have a car, you can probably afford to take GO.
It's the last mile bus integration that will make or break RER. Just like the TTC subway relies heavily on bus transfers, so will any future RER scheme--if we want it to have meaningful ridership beyond park and ride.
I think you're way overemphasizing the effect of fares. Sure, there should be substantial discounts when transferring between GO and TTC. But that bus connection not existing or being inconvenient will be a greater detriment to RER ridership than fares in my humble view.
You would be surprised of the sheer amount of stupid things that's on this government's mind. Remember how they removed TTC-GO fare integration at select GO stations?The province isn't going to spend $16 billion building a modern regional rapid transit system just to hobble it by keeping the fare structure from the 1960s.
He is talking about the TRBOT fare zone proposal which would divide the GTHA into several different fare zones roughly matching the municipal boundaries of today. You can read about it here:https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2020/12/board-trade-proposes-regional-transit-fare-integrationThe province isn't going to spend $16 billion building a modern regional rapid transit system just to hobble it by keeping the fare structure from the 1960s.
We're still years away from RER being completed. Just because it hasn't happened yet that doesn't mean it won't when the system is open.You would be surprised of the sheer amount of stupid things that's on this government's mind. Remember how they removed TTC-GO fare integration at select GO stations?
Yes, and something along those lines will happen.He is talking about the TRBOT fare zone proposal which would divide the GTHA into several different fare zones roughly matching the municipal boundaries of today. You can read about it here:https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2020/12/board-trade-proposes-regional-transit-fare-integration
Its definitely not the "same fare structure from the 1960s".
Someone please correct me if im wrong, but This seems like actual news here.Another thing GO/Metrolinx should do is that they should have through-running of the existing GO lines shown on official maps. That way people won't have to see Union as the end-point of every GO line. They already through-run both Lakeshore Lines and to a lesser extent Stouffville and Kitchener. Not sure if they currently or used to through-run Milton and Richmond Hill.
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Someone please correct me if im wrong, but This seems like actual news here.
Once the new signalling system at Union Station is completed and operational, through-running of the lines will be a far greater hindrance to service reliability than many other factors that currently affect the lines - especially at peak times. The only lines that will continue to operate through the station at most times will be the Lakeshore Lines.Another thing GO/Metrolinx should do is that they should have through-running of the existing GO lines shown on official maps. That way people won't have to see Union as the end-point of every GO line. They already through-run both Lakeshore Lines and to a lesser extent Stouffville and Kitchener. Not sure if they currently or used to through-run Milton and Richmond Hill.
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I thought through-running reduced dwell times and reduced operational complexity. It seems my understanding was wrong. Why would it hinder service reliability?Once the new signalling system at Union Station is completed and operational, through-running of the lines will be a far greater hindrance to service reliability
The 2020 GO Expansion EA update (linked in the GO construction projects thread) shows clear frequencies for each of the 5 electrified lines will be (both peak and off-peak) starting at page 11.
No two lines have identical schedules. Some trains could run through (like the Stouffville and Kitchener 10 minute frequency portion) and LakeShore East/West 15 minute frequency portion, but many trains would still not be through service at union.
I thought through-running reduced dwell times and reduced operational complexity. It seems my understanding was wrong. Why would it hinder service reliability?
I'm still generally confused by the Lakeshore West schedules in that document.The 2020 GO Expansion EA update (linked in the GO construction projects thread) shows clear frequencies for each of the 5 electrified lines will be (both peak and off-peak) starting at page 11.
No two lines have identical schedules. Some trains could run through (like the Stouffville and Kitchener 10 minute frequency portion) and LakeShore East/West 15 minute frequency portion, but many trains would still not be through service at union.
Isn’t this why we’d want more doors per car and single-level cars?Even with the new signalling, there are some basic constraints with the station that are due to things like the physical setup of the station and the various rules that the railways run by - not to mention some that are self-imposed by Metrolinx.
Because of this, it's been calculated that if a train is to run through the station that it will occupy a platform for about 10 minutes. This means that the throughput will be 6 trains per hour.
With double-berthing - having a train arrive at a platform from each direction, something that the new signal system is expressly designed to allow but is not capable today - the station will be able to handle 4 trains per hour per direction, for a total of 8 trains per hour on those platforms. And most of the tracks through the station will be configured to allow this.
Dan