GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[reaperexpress]

I don't view buying back the F59s as value engineering. That's just good sense in my book. Why pay full price for a new loco when you can buy a much cheaper one and refurbish it and still attain your planned end goal?

I agree that the purchase itself isn't value engineering, but it could be a symptom of value engineering on the electrification plans. It's definitely related to delays in actually getting a service electrified, and might possibly be related to a reduction in the planned extent of electrification within the forseeable future.

What's a locomotive lifespan? 30+ years?

Surely there's enough diesels already around for operations 15 years from now, given the amount of electrification they are talking about. I can see a lot of reasons to buy used engines. What's the downside, other than being Tier 2.

It depends whether they've cut back the scope of electrification over the next 15 years. The original plan was to eventually electrify 260 km of Metrolinx-owned track (almost all of it), and we know that the Kitchener-Georgetown segment has been put on indefinite hold due to NIMBYs in Guelph. It's possible more has also been put on hold or delayed such that those diesel locos would still be needed for another 15+ years. Of course the more optimistic view would be that they're figuring they can sell them to another railway when electrification comes on line. (Maybe trade Exo for their ALP-45 dual mode electric locos?)

 

[crs1026]

One key consideration - the used locos they are buying are exact carbon copies of the model ML already owns and loves ….. they were built to the exact GO spec. Absorbing these into GO’s fleet will be very easy. If the strategy is a stopgap that is intended to last only until electrification makes some of the newer diesels redundant, it is perfectly reasonable.
ML has the same cycles of spending and cost cutting as any other business. And we have certainly seen ML having its share of money pits and cost overruns on specific projects. There is a risk that some projects will be cut to the bones to keep the cost to the approved envelope.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

One key consideration - the used locos they are buying are exact carbon copies of the model ML already owns and loves ….. they were built to the exact GO spec. Absorbing these into GO’s fleet will be very easy. If the strategy is a stopgap that is intended to last only until electrification makes some of the newer diesels redundant, it is perfectly reasonable.
ML has the same cycles of spending and cost cutting as any other business. And we have certainly seen ML having its share of money pits and cost overruns on specific projects. There is a risk that some projects will be cut to the bones to keep the cost to the approved envelope.

- Paul

Are they the same units that we sold and derailed at Pickering?

 

[crs1026]

Are they the same units that we sold and derailed at Pickering?

Nope. Those were headed to Montreal iirc

PS those were ex GO 536, 537, 539, 540, rebuilt at CAD and then sold to NCDOT

- Paul

 

[asher__jo]

No doubt MX is heading down the "value-engineering" path. The reversal on the Scarborough junction improvements, constructing at grade crossings instead of following through with the grade separation projects on the Stouffville line, and the recent purchase of second hand, F59's from Metrolink is a clear sign that MX has been directed to deliver higher frequent trains at the lowest costs possible. Hence why I don't believe electrification will happen as soon as everyone hopes. Similar to level boarding, they'll probably future proof every station for eventual electrification, but not have any set dates for when they'll actually follow through with it. They probably got the quote to electrify a single line and didn't like what they saw. I'm sure MX and the Ontario government doesn't want to subject riders to anymore construction in order to electrify a line, and just want to get the Stouffville, and Barrie lines double tracking completed and operating.

If they continue down this path I could see the feds threatening to withdraw some of the billions given to expand GO.

 

[Bordercollie]

If they continue down this path I could see the feds threatening to withdraw some of the billions given to expand GO.

I think it's just trying to find a way to close a gap efficiency. I don't see any wrong with it.

 

[crs1026]

If they continue down this path I could see the feds threatening to withdraw some of the billions given to expand GO.

The Feds will be fine with it. Their narrative only depends on being able to say they are contributing funding to .... whatever is built. And all they want is the narrative, not the effective transit system.

The point @reaperexpress made, and it's a real serious risk is.... a scenario where the value engineering exceeds prudent value-for-money design challenges (which is desirable) and becomes short-sighted engineering-in of constraints (that bite us later, when the politicians involved have all retired) just to save money. Or goes unnoticed.... if Durham Region fails to expand as well as it could, because the GO service is too slow or infrequent, will anyone actually notice until it's too late? The decision not to build the flyover at Scarborough, the scaling back of grade separation and triple tracking east of Guildwood, building two-track bridges without roughing in the width for a third track, the awkward track plan for the routing through Oshawa.... these all will have been "value engineered" but may be profoundly unwise.

And since all of this happens behind closed doors, and represents a level of thought and analysis that politicians and voters generally don't get....

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

The Feds will be fine with it. Their narrative only depends on being able to say they are contributing funding to .... whatever is built. And all they want is the narrative, not the effective transit system.

The point @reaperexpress made, and it's a real serious risk is.... a scenario where the value engineering exceeds prudent value-for-money design challenges (which is desirable) and becomes short-sighted engineering-in of constraints (that bite us later, when the politicians involved have all retired) just to save money. Or goes unnoticed.... if Durham Region fails to expand as well as it could, because the GO service is too slow or infrequent, will anyone actually notice until it's too late? The decision not to build the flyover at Scarborough, the scaling back of grade separation and triple tracking east of Guildwood, building two-track bridges without roughing in the width for a third track, the awkward track plan for the routing through Oshawa.... these all will have been "value engineered" but may be profoundly unwise.

And since all of this happens behind closed doors, and represents a level of thought and analysis that politicians and voters generally don't get....

- Paul

Re building two-track bridges without roughing in the width for a third track,

Are there specific examples of this you could point to?

 

[nfitz]

I'm curious which streets it's alleged will no longer be grade-separated?

 

[Bojaxs]

I'm curious which streets it's alleged will no longer be grade-separated?

I think a lot of the crossings on the Stouffville line south of Unionville.

Google maps shows they're just laying down a second track across the road instead of grade separating.

MX still hasn't begun grade separating Danforth.

 

[crs1026]

I'm going by my dusty memory of the most recent versions of a grade sep on LSE east of Guildwood, which only provided two-track width. and which I don't have handy. I will go hunting for the detail when I'm back at my desk in a day or so.
In a general sense, ML certainly seems to have scaled this work way back in timeline and scope.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

I think a lot of the crossings on the Stouffville line south of Unionville.

Google maps shows they're just laying down a second track across the road instead of grade separating.

MX still hasn't begun grade separating Danforth.

As far as I know Danforth Road will be separated. That only leaves Progress that's south of Sheppard.

There's certainly approved TPAPs to separate and close everything other than Danforth - which seems by far the most critical. https://www.metrolinx.com/en/projec...pansion/studies/stouffville-grade-separations

 

[canarob]

As far as I know Danforth Road will be separated. That only leaves Progress that's south of Sheppard.

There's certainly approved TPAPs to separate and close everything other than Danforth - which seems by far the most critical. https://www.metrolinx.com/en/projec...pansion/studies/stouffville-grade-separations

Maybe this work is just being slowed down and the focus is (as always) on getting Lakeshore more service and electrified? The grade separation and new station station at Finch is underway now, so work is progressing. That new station opening before electrification or express trains will just add to already long commutes though. Hopefully when we get the West Highland Creek bridge and related track work done we can at lest get all-day, everyday 30-minute service.

 

[PShells]

The Feds will be fine with it. Their narrative only depends on being able to say they are contributing funding to .... whatever is built. And all they want is the narrative, not the effective transit system.

The point @reaperexpress made, and it's a real serious risk is.... a scenario where the value engineering exceeds prudent value-for-money design challenges (which is desirable) and becomes short-sighted engineering-in of constraints (that bite us later, when the politicians involved have all retired) just to save money. Or goes unnoticed.... if Durham Region fails to expand as well as it could, because the GO service is too slow or infrequent, will anyone actually notice until it's too late? The decision not to build the flyover at Scarborough, the scaling back of grade separation and triple tracking east of Guildwood, building two-track bridges without roughing in the width for a third track, the awkward track plan for the routing through Oshawa.... these all will have been "value engineered" but may be profoundly unwise.

And since all of this happens behind closed doors, and represents a level of thought and analysis that politicians and voters generally don't get....

- Paul

If the Scarborough Junction grade separation for the second Stouffville line track is not built will the Stouffville line use the two north tracks and the Lakeshore East line use the two south tracks in the corridor? If both lines are running 2-way 15-minute service will this configuration allow for a LSE express train? Will there still be capacity available for VIA?

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

I'm going by my dusty memory of the most recent versions of a grade sep on LSE east of Guildwood, which only provided two-track width. and which I don't have handy. I will go hunting for the detail when I'm back at my desk in a day or so.
In a general sense, ML certainly seems to have scaled this work way back in timeline and scope.

- Paul

Its sad but entirely predictable. One can only hope that the value engineering has been done with the goal of prioritizing 15min frequencies at the expense of other promises and not wholesale value engineering for the sake of the bottom line.

Globally, almost every large infrastructure project that was designed pre 2020-2022 covid/inflation era has had to have significant scope reduction. Why would Metrolinx of all organizations be immune?