GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[drum118]

Is that from a source drum? I haven't heard anything about such work, just UT'ers talking about it being done.

Its been raised during various EA's, including the LRT. Also with various Brampton proposal for the downtown.

This goes back as far as the early 2000s when the first track was being plan, before CN decided to add the 2nd track.

It goes back that far when I said that this corridor should have 4 tracks with 2 for CN and 2 for GO. Downtown area is the pinch point between James and Mills without tearing things down or closing parts of streets off.

Best you can get in the downtown as it stands today is 3 tracks.

I know there was talk a few years ago Metrolinx buying 21 Nelsons St to use it for the new north retaining wall and the new north bridge at Union St. Some of the YMCA parking lot will be needed to build the retaining wall and bridge as well.

John St will have to be close off 100% since you can't do a grade separation there. There was a push during the early 2000s EA of closing both road off, but John ended up remaining open.

 

[DKsan]

At last night's Brampton planning committee meeting, Marilyn Ball, the acting CAO and chief planner gave a verbal update confirming that Metrolinx is assembling that entire block.

Short-term would be surface parking lot. Long term would mobility hub mixed-use, including a parking garage.

Of course, the committee passed a motion asking Metrolinx to come and give a presentation, as well as work with council and city staff for a long-term vision. Big problem noted by one councilor is the site is filled with rooming houses and the concern of whether city has capacity if those residents are displaced.

 

[mdrejhon]

"how many cars can you park inside it....that's all it's good for".

Good one, thanks for the chuckle.

 

[mdrejhon]

Best you can get in the downtown as it stands today is 3 tracks.

Do you know if they're leaning towards a north track or a south track? (North track requiring physically moving the old train station).

 

[Allandale25]

Do you know if they're leaning towards a north track or a south track? (North track requiring physically moving the old train station).

They are leaning towards a new third track on the south side of the existing tracks. This would allow it to line up with the existing third track (on the south side) to the east (near the Peel switches/Peel Memorial Hospital site) and to the west (just west of OBRY). I'll post tonight screenshots from the recently released GO RER Business Case Analysis and from a 2014 report that has since been taken off line. Only one document I've seen showed the track on the north side and that was from the HMLRT TPAP. As mdrejhon points out, putting a third track on the north side of the existing tracks in downtown Brampton would require them to pick up and move to the north the historic Brampton Station. With a track on the south side, some narrowing of Railroad Street might be required.

Also, I can post documents about the EA that was supposed to have started in 2015 for the third track. There's been no recent news on this and my sense is because it's being discussed with CN Rail. No point in launching an EA unless CN wants to cooperate. There's evening and weekend service coming in 2016-2017. The question is can service improvements happen in 2018-2019 without the third track and if CN allows for it.

 

[crs1026]

Do you know if they're leaning towards a north track or a south track? (North track requiring physically moving the old train station).

A couple years back, I saw a powerpoint that laid out the proposed alignment. Wish I could have kept a copy, but I didn't, and have never found it on line. Anyways, yes it put the new track on the north side, which necessitated moving the depot. That's not really that big an expense. The bigger issue at the time was the loss of parking spaces.

- Paul

EDIT: I wrote this just as @Allandale25 was writing a more informed response.

 

[drum118]

Do you know if they're leaning towards a north track or a south track? (North track requiring physically moving the old train station).

North is the only option. Moving the station has been on the table from day one as well in one of the city proposal.

To do the south would require ripping down the south platform and the buildings at Main St. Would also require closing parts of Railroad street off to the point only 50% or less would remain as a one way single lane road.

Also, having the 3/4 track on the north side would keep GO out of CN way on the KW runs as well most of their Georgetown runs.

 

[Allandale25]

A couple years back, I saw a powerpoint that laid out the proposed alignment. Wish I could have kept a copy, but I didn't, and have never found it on line. Anyways, yes it put the new track on the north side, which necessitated moving the depot. That's not really that big an expense. The bigger issue at the time was the loss of parking spaces.

That presentation might be related to the HMLRT which does have a slide/document showing it on the north side. It pre-dates the 2014 and 2015 documents I mention below.

North is the only option. Moving the station has been on the table from day one as well in one of the city proposal.

To do the south would require ripping down the south platform and the buildings at Main St. Would also require closing parts of Railroad street off to the point only 50% or less would remain as a one way single lane road.

I'm not a civil engineer so I certainly defer to those with more expertise. I'm just providing the information I've seen in two recent documents. As I said, I'll post the documents I have tonight. Like I said, the GO RER document that was just released shows it on the south side. The 2014 document seemed to suggest they want it on the south side so that freight trains do not have to slow down if they needed to use a third track on the north side.

Which building specifically on Main Street would need to come down? The entire Brampton Bus Terminal building (can't remember what it's called and address not handy)? Creating a one-way road doesn't sound like that big of a deal. It's not a major street with a lot of road traffic from my impression. I would assume they would make the existing south platform an island platform and slightly widen or modify it. Railroad/Mill and the tracks and how they intersect would need to be rejigged of course.[/QUOTE]

 

[drum118]

That presentation might be related to the HMLRT which does have a slide/document showing it on the north side. It pre-dates the 2014 and 2015 documents I mention below.



I'm not a civil engineer so I certainly defer to those with more expertise. I'm just providing the information I've seen in two recent documents. As I said, I'll post the documents I have tonight. Like I said, the GO RER document that was just released shows it on the south side. The 2014 document seemed to suggest they want it on the south side so that freight trains do not have to slow down if they needed to use a third track on the north side.

Which building specifically on Main Street would need to come down? The entire Brampton Bus Terminal building (can't remember what it's called and address not handy)? Creating a one-way road doesn't sound like that big of a deal. It's not a major street with a lot of road traffic from my impression. I would assume they would make the existing south platform an island platform. Railroad/Mill and the tracks and how they intersect would need to be rejigged of course.

[/QUOTE]

There a office building at Main as well at the bus terminal to the point there is no clearance between it and a south track at Main, other that a staircase to the platform.

I thought I shot a lot more photos for this area as I can't find them on my site. Could be part of the 1,500 that have disappear with no explanation from Flicker or been untag by them. I know I shot the area before the south platform was built as well during the construction and after.

You also have more issues with the road on the south side on the east side of Main as well not maintaining a straight line that exist to day. Everything east of James St and west of the Orangeville diamond can support 4 tracks, with 3 there now. There was talk that a flyunder would be built west of Bramalea to get GO to the north side of the corridor to remove the bottleneck issue today, more so once more service is added to the KW line.

Depending on quality of service plan for 2018-19, there will be some issues at Brampton and will vary at time of day for CN trains.

Losing that office building is not what Brampton wants for their downtown as well having a major impact on the transit terminal.

 

[Allandale25]

There a office building at Main as well at the bus terminal to the point there is no clearance between it and a south track at Main, other that a staircase to the platform.
Losing that office building is not what Brampton wants for their downtown as well having a major impact on the transit terminal.

The office building and the bus terminal are the same building. Google maps shows that there could be enough room to fit a track in, albeit the clearance would be tight. That said, would it be really that tight compared to other sites, like what's being proposed at the Davenport grade separation? So I question, again not as a civil engineer or someone experienced with CN requirements for track clearances, if you would actually need to loose that office building.

Here's a version with where the track could go.

You also have more issues with the road on the south side on the east side of Main as well not maintaining a straight line that exist to day.

Yes, as you can see above there might have to be a slight bend to fit a track on the south side, but it doesn't look as big as the one that would have may have to be used on the north side.[/QUOTE]

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The office building and the bus terminal are the same building. Google maps shows that there could be enough room to fit a track in, albeit the clearance would be tight. That said, would it be really that tight compared to other sites, like what's being proposed at the Davenport grade separation? So I question, again not as a civil engineer or someone experienced with CN requirements for track clearances, if you would actually need to loose that office building.

Here's a version with where the track could go.

That's what I've been wondering. I think the most that would have to be done is knock out a few cubicles on the building, squeeze Railroad St to a one-way, and build structure over the terminal area.

The one concern that does come to mind, though, is vibration on the building.

 

[drum118]

Given Metrolinx wants crash wall next to it corridor, trains closer to the building with more noise from them, how long to you expect business stay here, let alone replace them??

Vibration will have an effect on everything. The building with have to be retrofit to deal with both the noise and the vibration so people can work in that building.

You will loose a good chunk of the loop use by GO buses.

Removing a few cubicles will have a major structural impact on the building at the Main St end.

Making Railroad One Way as a single lane road will work, but will require a new retaining wall to support the new track as well changing the platform from side to a centre one.

There is more clearance for the Davenport separation than here, with buildings further away.

Again, getting rid of an office building goes against the city needs as well helping the downtown to grow.

That parking lot across the street has been the same way with development sign since I first shot it in 2005.

 

[Allandale25]

I'll have to look at the GO RER report to see if the Missing Link factored into the track plan. This might be a moot issue. Either:
1) CN lets GO increase the frequency of GO Trains as this chart from a Steve Munro blog post indicates without the 3rd track;
2) CN insists on a 3rd track and it goes on the north or south side; or
3) The Missing Link is built and 2 tracks are enough.

Of course, there's also the high speed rail proposal so even if the freight is removed a 3rd track might be needed.

I think the impacts on the office building could be mitigated. Happy to agree to disagree. Until we see engineering reports and studies, I don't think anyone can be definitive. Let the research speak for itself. Build the crash wall, rebuild the tracks and do what they did on the Georgetown South corridor where black vibration padding was added, retrofit the office building if needed. If adding a 3rd track attracts more office to downtown Brampton than surely some creative solutions can be found to deal with this situation. As far as I can tell there's still a lot of office vacancy in downtown Brampton so it's not like it we're talking about an urgent situation. I could be wrong on that point.

Given Metrolinx wants crash wall next to it corridor, trains closer to the building with more noise from them, how long to you expect business stay here, let alone replace them??

Vibration will have an effect on everything. The building with have to be retrofit to deal with both the noise and the vibration so people can work in that building.

You will loose a good chunk of the loop use by GO buses.

Removing a few cubicles will have a major structural impact on the building at the Main St end.

Making Railroad One Way as a single lane road will work, but will require a new retaining wall to support the new track as well changing the platform from side to a centre one.

There is more clearance for the Davenport separation than here, with buildings further away.

Again, getting rid of an office building goes against the city needs as well helping the downtown to grow.

That parking lot across the street has been the same way with development sign since I first shot it in 2005.

 

[TOareaFan]

If adding a 3rd track attracts more office to downtown Brampton than surely some creative solutions can be found to deal with this situation. As far as I can tell there's still a lot of office vacancy in downtown Brampton so it's not like it we're talking about an urgent situation. I could be wrong on that point.

There really isn't a lot of office space in downtown Brampton....and the building that ML bought is the most vacant of them all......it was at committee last night and the city seems a bit a) surprised and b) upset about being surprised (ie not being told) about ML's plans to buy the building.....they have asked ML for some answers like a) what did you buy (ie. just the office building and its surface parking or any of the low end "affordable" rental houses along railroad....b) what are your plans for whatever you bought.

ML seem to be in a bit of scramble to answer the questions. Local media is also asking the same questions.

Aside from not liking being kept in the dark, the city is expressing concerns about a) tax assessment....a parking lot generates less tax for the city compared to an office building......and if the parking lot is gov't owned it would not generate any direct tax and some sort of PILT would need to be negotiated (the PILT bit is my observation, not sure the city has figured that out)....b) what effect does losing that building have on Brampton's Places to Grow targets for density......c) if the houses are included in the purchase...what does that mean for the tenants living in them.

They have not, yet, figured out that having a free parking structure south of the tracks will eat into their own parking revenues on the 4 enclosed parking garages they operate.......but I am sure they will.

 

[drum118]

I would recommend people do a walking tour from James St to the west and see what is on both side of the tracks and what impact a 3rd or 4th track will have on the area.

I stand by my comments based on my construction background and design knowledge, as well knowing the area.

I know the city is pushing for more office space, a campus and more retail, let alone residential development. It took a long time to get the 2 towers built, with a fair number of fail attempts for others by the station.