The Mad Navigator
Banned
I as well. Couldn't stand taking VIA to the falls, and I would gladly take the GO there for sure! Even just to get top level views from the train!
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GO Niagara
- Thread starter Northern Light
- Start date
I as well. Couldn't stand taking VIA to the falls, and I would gladly take the GO there for sure! Even just to get top level views from the train!
Mapleson
Active Member
I'd say it's priced just about right. Slightly higher than an arbitrary car journey, they get the core premium audience without slubbing along all the road warriors doing a weekend commute. I see GO keeping this up the future for the politics of saying they offer service to Niagara, but won't offer any year-round regular service because the demand isn't there at the right price point to justify more.
GregWTravels
Active Member
The Niagara-GTA corridor study (previously known as the peninsula corridor) has just released a Draft Area Transportation System Alternatives Report, available from their website. I haven't read the whole thing, but here are a few options they are examining and which are being carried forward in the study...
It would be great to see a regional train service between the cities west of Toronto, focused on Hamilton as its hub. 2 or 4 car DMUs or EMUs would seem to make sense on these routes.
It would be great to see a regional train service between the cities west of Toronto, focused on Hamilton as its hub. 2 or 4 car DMUs or EMUs would seem to make sense on these routes.
jn_12
Senior Member
I know that plan is meant to address the lakeside corridor, but the fact GO isn't addressing the transit needs of the rest of the Niagara Region is a huge disappointment. I came up with a plan for the Niagara Region last summer...
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UT...981123615186291928.000474eb65837a305611a&z=10
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UT...981123615186291928.000474eb65837a305611a&z=10
Mapleson
Active Member
Hamilton falls under Metrolinx's juristiction, and they've been making/planning strategic investments, but don't look to see a Hamilton-centric system. As all roads lead to Rome, Metrolinx's theory is all railroads lead to Union Station.
A huge disappointment? What exactly do you think GO's mandate is? Niagara Region would be well served by a vastly expanded local transit provider, but I'd expect to see GO Trains to both Kitchener (Georgetown line) and Cambridge (Milton line) before any of your new corridors are even considered.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I would agree with you but I also would have thought that we would have seen those trains (or even weekend service on existing routes) before we ever saw GO start running money losing trains (and then have people complain about the fares on those) to Niagara at all!
jn_12
Senior Member
I'm not suggesting trains to Port Colborne. 3 GO buses would do the job of servicing the entire region (if you looked at that map...). GO's mandate has rapdly expanded and one only needs to look at the towns they now service to realize that they are slowly becoming an entity that is trying to service the entire Greater Golden Horseshoe. The fact is (and I've posted many times about this) Niagara currently doesn't have inter-city service within the region. Inter-city transit has been discussed for decades by the municipalities but will never happen solely due to the politics of the region. There needs to be a non-political body acting for the region to provide this service (ie. GO). For a region that is as isolated and dependant on its citizens being able to work and live in the region, it's a huge missing link. At least Niagara (Niagara, not Niagara Falls) is underserved by greyhound/Coach Canada, which one can't say about some of the other routes GO has set up.
Mapleson
Active Member
You confuse the child and parent entities. Metrolinx has a vast mandate. GO Transit's mandate is still a commuter service. That's why you see Metrolinx doing projects for GO, but also for TTC (TransitCity), YRT (Viva BRT), Hamilton LRT, Mississauga Transit's Hurontario BRT, etc. I don't object to Metrolinx putting in the capital funding, but it doesn't make sense to operate all/most of Southern Ontario under one banner. PRESTO will provide an unified pricing/scheduling front, so then you're down to operating expenses.
Those routes make a lot of sense for Niagara Region Transit to operate. Those routes don't make much sense for GO Transit to operate. As was mentioned, there is resistance to any level of service to Niagara Region because the demand just isn't there (3 buses running in Niagara could be running Kitchener-Milton and convert more of the 27% people boarding their from cars to bus) yet. That same resistance exists in GO and Metrolinx has mandated the operation from a political level of servicing the GGH rather than just the GTHA as is GO's mandate. GO should provide backbone connections between Transit services (regional transit) and stay out of local transit. Otherwise, you risk losing all your local expertise/knowledge base.
Those routes make a lot of sense for Niagara Region Transit to operate. Those routes don't make much sense for GO Transit to operate. As was mentioned, there is resistance to any level of service to Niagara Region because the demand just isn't there (3 buses running in Niagara could be running Kitchener-Milton and convert more of the 27% people boarding their from cars to bus) yet. That same resistance exists in GO and Metrolinx has mandated the operation from a political level of servicing the GGH rather than just the GTHA as is GO's mandate. GO should provide backbone connections between Transit services (regional transit) and stay out of local transit. Otherwise, you risk losing all your local expertise/knowledge base.
GregWTravels
Active Member
There is no Niagara Region Transit, but rather the municipalities within the regions operate their own transit systems. The region has improved transit (both within communities and between communities) as a "potential goal," but as it stands right now they don't operate any transit between communities (other than specialised transit for special needs).
If Metrolinx is the body with a mandate to improve intercity connectivity in southern Ontario, including improving connectivity in the communities outside of the GTA, then as you say they can plan it. At present though, I don't know who would run intercity services. The local transit in Niagara region is focused on providing local services, and as such have local buses and not coach style longer distance coaches. Perhaps a new body could be set up, or the services could be contracted out by Metrolinx.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Because there is no "local will" to run intercity services, though, is it right to force GO to fill the void? Especially where there are such short comings in service levels within its own, current, mandate area!
jn_12
Senior Member
Are people in Niagara not commuting from Welland to St Catharines? Just because they aren't commuting to Toronto, doesn't mean they aren't commuting. And as GregW said, Niagara doesn't have a regional transit operator. You might want to learn a bit more about the region before you chime in. Also, it's not a zero-sum game. If Kitchener needs 3 buses and Niagara needs 3 buses, it's not like the government can't afford 6 buses. Improved service in one place isn't going to cause poor service in another.
Given the fact that the municipalities in Niagara can't figure out how to do the inter-municpal thing, I think it needs to be GO (or metrolinx, whatever). I don't think you need a new body when GO is already starting to establish itself in Niagara. I don't think it goes beyond GO or Metrolinx's mandate really. People in Niagara commute, the only difference is that it's significantly within the region. To me, the Ontario government's mandate should be to make commuting better for as many people as possible, and if that means going into Niagara where half a million people live, I think that makes a lot of sense.
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SunriseChampion
Senior Member
I know nothing--and I mean nothing--about transit in Niagara so I have to ask: is Niagara another Durham when it comes to transit?
jn_12
Senior Member
I don't know Durham's problem, but the problem in Niagara is that you have 12 municipalities ranging in size from St Catharines to Wainfleet and more than half the population is in 3 of the cities (St Catharines, Niagara Falls and Welland). St Catharines and Niagara Falls don't want to subsidize service to the small communities, while the small communities don't have the money to chip in for service. The other issue is that there's no real set travel patterns in the region. The only sure thing is that the St Catharines-Welland- NF triangle is the busiest. But, each of these cities has different relationships with its neighbours, so a place like Welland has been heavily linked to Port Colborne (its neighbour to the south) and Pelham (to the west) but has nothing to do with Thorold, its neighbour to the north. Similar patterns come up with each municipality. So to develop a system everyone can agree upon is difficult since every municipality comes from a very different perspective.
There are rivalries as well. I'd actually put it a bit on par with Europe where France and Germany counter-balance each other and vie for power. St Catharines and Niagara Falls play those roles. St Catharines has the population base, Niagara Falls has the tourism (I'm not sure where they stand in terms of economic output... been a while since I looked those numbers up. Tourism plays a huge role though so that skews things a bit). St Catharines has traditionally been staunchly conservative and home to GM. So the automobile is king. A pretty significant portion of GM workers live in the Falls too. So you have pressure to support the auto industry in both communities. You also have one of the most stagnant economies in the province, one of the oldest demographics in the province and not much of a tax base to draw from (real estate is half the price and sometimes 1/3rd the price of a place in the GTA). In that sense, it is probably similar to Durham. Niagara reminds me a bit of Oshawa.
There are some progressive politicians in the region. The Mayor from Welland is a forward thinking prof at Niagara College. Problem is that its the type of region where the Toronto Sun does very well. So it's an uphill battle.
There's other things I'm sure, but I'm getting a bit too tired... i'll come back tomorrow and touch on things I missed.
There are rivalries as well. I'd actually put it a bit on par with Europe where France and Germany counter-balance each other and vie for power. St Catharines and Niagara Falls play those roles. St Catharines has the population base, Niagara Falls has the tourism (I'm not sure where they stand in terms of economic output... been a while since I looked those numbers up. Tourism plays a huge role though so that skews things a bit). St Catharines has traditionally been staunchly conservative and home to GM. So the automobile is king. A pretty significant portion of GM workers live in the Falls too. So you have pressure to support the auto industry in both communities. You also have one of the most stagnant economies in the province, one of the oldest demographics in the province and not much of a tax base to draw from (real estate is half the price and sometimes 1/3rd the price of a place in the GTA). In that sense, it is probably similar to Durham. Niagara reminds me a bit of Oshawa.
There are some progressive politicians in the region. The Mayor from Welland is a forward thinking prof at Niagara College. Problem is that its the type of region where the Toronto Sun does very well. So it's an uphill battle.
There's other things I'm sure, but I'm getting a bit too tired... i'll come back tomorrow and touch on things I missed.
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Mapleson
Active Member
Attacking my knowledge base does not invalidate my comments. Please stick to the issues at hand and not resort to personal attacks.
Metrolinx's Mandated Area
There is not a Niagara Region Trasit (NRT), but there isn't a reason not to have one. Rather than grafting it onto Metrolinx, which is a commuter service for Toronto, make a new entity NRT with a mandate for the Niagara Region. That way you have local knowledge, local funding (farebox revenue to operational expenses), and local service. You need provincial level intervention to get it done in either case, so why not keep the areas manageable? In fact, you could make NRT a second subsidary to Metrolinx, just as GO Transit is Metrolinx operational arm in the GTHA.
Look at the history of GO (Government of Ontario) Transit. They were a provincial corporation, then given to the municipalities, then the Servicing Board, then Metrolinx absorbed them. It hasn't stopped them building up a decent base for an independant transit system. If you have GO servicing Niagara, you have routes like Welland to St Catharines competing against say, extending Lakeshore East from Oshawa to Bowmanville (~$500M). Transit/transportation isn't a zero-sum game, but it's damn near close. There is $1.7B in the provincial budget for transit infrastructure this year. I don't see it expanding drastically (more than 5% a year in the next 5 years), so there is direct competition between projects. That's why the gov't asked Metrolinx to pick which projects were delayed/defunded for the $4B over 5 year cut back.
Metrolinx's Mandated Area
There is not a Niagara Region Trasit (NRT), but there isn't a reason not to have one. Rather than grafting it onto Metrolinx, which is a commuter service for Toronto, make a new entity NRT with a mandate for the Niagara Region. That way you have local knowledge, local funding (farebox revenue to operational expenses), and local service. You need provincial level intervention to get it done in either case, so why not keep the areas manageable? In fact, you could make NRT a second subsidary to Metrolinx, just as GO Transit is Metrolinx operational arm in the GTHA.
Look at the history of GO (Government of Ontario) Transit. They were a provincial corporation, then given to the municipalities, then the Servicing Board, then Metrolinx absorbed them. It hasn't stopped them building up a decent base for an independant transit system. If you have GO servicing Niagara, you have routes like Welland to St Catharines competing against say, extending Lakeshore East from Oshawa to Bowmanville (~$500M). Transit/transportation isn't a zero-sum game, but it's damn near close. There is $1.7B in the provincial budget for transit infrastructure this year. I don't see it expanding drastically (more than 5% a year in the next 5 years), so there is direct competition between projects. That's why the gov't asked Metrolinx to pick which projects were delayed/defunded for the $4B over 5 year cut back.
Platform 27
Active Member
The issue has less to do with whether Niagara is part of the GTHA or not than the fact that GO is mandated by the province to be an interregional operator---and that's regional in the government sense of "regional municipality" (or the now-single-tier Toronto and Hamilton).
If it crosses from one top-level municipality to another, it's fair game for GO, and accordingly, provincial funding.
If it doesn't, it's the responsibility of the single regional municipality that the service would be contained within to figure out how the service is to be provided and financed.
A unified NRT isn't necessary... neither Halton nor Peel have single regional municipality-level transit agencies, but their respective local agencies still manage to provide relatively decent boundary-crossing services. If St. Catharines Transit and Niagara Falls Transit wanted to figure out a way to have better interchange between one another, they could, and Niagara Region taxpayers would pay as much or as little as necessary to make that possible. But just because the local pols can't play nice, why should Joe Taxpayer in Pickering or Barrie foot the bill to move people from one part of Niagara Region to another?
If it crosses from one top-level municipality to another, it's fair game for GO, and accordingly, provincial funding.
If it doesn't, it's the responsibility of the single regional municipality that the service would be contained within to figure out how the service is to be provided and financed.
A unified NRT isn't necessary... neither Halton nor Peel have single regional municipality-level transit agencies, but their respective local agencies still manage to provide relatively decent boundary-crossing services. If St. Catharines Transit and Niagara Falls Transit wanted to figure out a way to have better interchange between one another, they could, and Niagara Region taxpayers would pay as much or as little as necessary to make that possible. But just because the local pols can't play nice, why should Joe Taxpayer in Pickering or Barrie foot the bill to move people from one part of Niagara Region to another?