GO 2.0 Expansion Plan

[ARG1]

Don't get me wrong........I essentially agree with the above..........but would you tell me again about all the GO service improvements? (Service is currently below 2019 levels).

I'm still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since A) Those 2019 service improvements were still done under Ford, B) We had a massive pandemic which saw service decreases across systems globally, many of which still haven't bounced back, C) We're currently in the middle of a transitional period where we have to hand over operations to another organization entirely, one that unfortunately is seeing a massive amount of setbacks (now if things do go sour at ONXpress, that's definitely something we can pin Ford on, but at least right now there isn't enough evidence to fully sound the alarm.

Also, are service levels lower than 2019? Weekend service is better than ever, and in many places are weekday service is also better than 2019 (30m Kitchener service anyone?). The only major pain point right now is the fact that 15m Lakeshore Service isn't all day anymore, but honestly its probably a coin toss how much service today is worse than 2019 - if at all.

Don't get me wrong................but ....how's that's Bomanville extension coming? The Bolton one? Hourly service to K-W........uh huh.

Bowmanville is definitely a fair point, Bolton - I'm struggling to remember what exactly the depth of that promise was last election, and all day service to K-W (I don't think it was hourly) was proposed to be done this year. We have around 10 months to find out how much that promise was worth (but I wouldn't be surprised if the issues getting ONXpress off the ground will play into that).

7 years of Doug Ford has advanced things far less than many seem desirous of providing credit for............. Talk is not action. It wasn't under the Liberals either; and its still not.

I think its worth noting just how low the bar is though. If the theme of Ford's government is mismanagement in regards to project execution, the theme of the old Liberal governments was analysis paralysis. Having a mere study published that said doing something was a good idea was enough for celebration back then - because frankly that's all that we got. A common gag in the 905 community where I grew up regarding the old Liberal government which went along something like "We are going to build something, but before we can do that we must prepare to build something, but before that we must prepare to prepare to build something, but before that we must prepare to prepare to prepare to build something", and it goes on. Feel free to add in a few lines regarding making sure the coffee is the right temperature. And for the few projects that were planned and started under the Liberals (Crosstown, Finch West), well they haven't exactly been symbols of competency either - even before Ford came into office. So ye, under that context, a government that has actually managed to get capital funding rolling in and signed several major contracts into improving public transit and getting construction, all without getting destracted by nonsense like Hydrail - like I know its not an exemplary showing, but its still significantly better than the sloth house that was Liberal era transit planning.

 

[WB62]

Also, are service levels lower than 2019?

Excellent graphs made by @reaperexpress can help solve this question. Better yet the numbers are divided per line so the flawed overall trains per week argument doesn't apply.

 

[Northern Light]

Also, are service levels lower than 2019? Weekend service is better than ever, and in many places are weekday service is also better than 2019 (30m Kitchener service anyone?). The only major pain point right now is the fact that 15m Lakeshore Service isn't all day anymore, but honestly its probably a coin toss how much service today is worse than 2019 - if at all.

@Willybru21 's post above is a fine illustration. But for greater clarity.

LSE - lost 15M weekday mid-day (currently 30M

LSW (to Oakville) lost 15M mid-day as well.

In both caases, 15M service was added from mid-afternoon on weekends, (service is every 30m until ~3pm)

LSE also lost all rush hour express service.

The other lines, excepting K-W have returned to previous weekday service levels, though Milton was imminently set to add an 11th train which hasn't yet arrived.

Also, population surged in the GTA significantly during the applicable period, so service per capita is down.

K-W did see the weekday increase in service, primarily btw Bramalea and Toronto, and has added limited weekend service.

Niagara has also improved on weekdays.

Partially offset by weekday and weekend declines in UP

 

[innsertnamehere]

The biggest losses have been on LSE, which is well acknowledgeable for being related to the corridor reconstruction bringing trackage east of Union down from 3 to 2 tracks.

I am surprised 15-min service has not been restored on LSW though.

Other losses are mostly in response to lower peak-period volumes than experienced pre-2019 relating to changing work patterns.

As a whole there has been barely any change in service levels since 2019 though, and just as many decreases as increases. It's not a great look. I think Metrolinx / Alstom is basically just in a holding pattern until ONxpress can take over and start ramping services.. which we know is delayed later than initially anticipated.

 

[nfitz]

The biggest losses have been on LSE, which is well acknowledgeable for being related to the corridor reconstruction bringing trackage east of Union down from 3 to 2 tracks.

I am surprised 15-min service has not been restored on LSW though.

I don't think anything precludes 15-minute service on LSE currently. They run every 15-minutes on weekends. The only possible issue I can see is further inconvenience to VIA - and when has that ever been a consideration for Metrolinx?

 

[ARG1]

I don't think anything precludes 15-minute service on LSE currently. They run every 15-minutes on weekends. The only possible issue I can see is further inconvenience to VIA - and when has that ever been a consideration for Metrolinx?

If I were to guess, it might complicate construction schedules for the Ontario Line. Generally speaking its a lot more difficult to accomplish corridor activities (such as the ongoing track relocation) when you're actively running trains along it. The question of course is how much of an impact 15m headways has compared to 30m headways.

 

[nfitz]

If I were to guess, it might complicate construction schedules for the Ontario Line. Generally speaking its a lot more difficult to accomplish corridor activities (such as the ongoing track relocation) when you're actively running trains along it. The question of course is how much of an impact 15m headways has compared to 30m headways.

There's already up to 10 trains an hour mid-day going through the construction site. I don't see that making it 14 changes much. They aren't working on the active track, and when they've (rarely) had to, they do a full closure.

 

[crs1026]

There's already up to 10 trains an hour mid-day going through the construction site. I don't see that making it 14 changes much. They aren't working on the active track, and when they've (rarely) had to, they do a full closure.

While the LSE work zone has a great deal of physical barriers to keep work protected, there are multiple Rule 42 foremen required. And in some places, construction comes right to the track barrier, and may have to pause when trains are cleared through.

The Rule 42 requirements generates an awful lot of radio traffic and adding any more service creates more potential for error.

I would say that 15 minute service might be a bridge too far until the third track is restored.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

While the LSE work zone has a great deal of physical barriers to keep work protected, there are multiple Rule 42 foremen required. And in some places, construction comes right to the track barrier, and may have to pause when trains are cleared through.

The Rule 42 requirements generates an awful lot of radio traffic and adding any more service creates more potential for error.

I would say that 15 minute service might be a bridge too far until the third track is restored.

- Paul

The physical barriers are there to eliminate a lot of the Rule 42 radio traffic and other issues when working within railway corridors. And they do that quite well.

What is left for the flagmen is any work that has to go across the tracks, or if they are doing any work on the tracks themselves, such as tie changeouts..

Dan

 

[Northern Light]

I don't think anything precludes 15-minute service on LSE currently. They run every 15-minutes on weekends. The only possible issue I can see is further inconvenience to VIA - and when has that ever been a consideration for Metrolinx?

The weekend service at 15M is from ~3pm.

15M service is not scheduled during predicted work periods, so far as I can tell.

That's why its not 15M on weekend mornings, as that is catch-up period for schedule slip on weekdays.

****

I would love to see the 15M restored; but....understanding the issue of potential conflicts, I'd be content to see them do 15M evening service before mid-day. Just go as far as you can, as soon as practical.

 

[nfitz]

The weekend service at 15M is from ~3pm.

15M service is not scheduled during predicted work periods, so far as I can tell.

That's why its not 15M on weekend mornings, as that is catch-up period for schedule slip on weekdays.

Are you 100% sure about this, or are you just offering a theory. That does conflict with Metrolinx's own comments (but hey, what doesn't - they should call it Metrolie).

 

[reaperexpress]

Also, are service levels lower than 2019? Weekend service is better than ever, and in many places are weekday service is also better than 2019 (30m Kitchener service anyone?). The only major pain point right now is the fact that 15m Lakeshore Service isn't all day anymore, but honestly its probably a coin toss how much service today is worse than 2019 - if at all.

Here is the current service, coloured relative to the service just before the pandemic. Red is worse and green is better.

 

[T3G]

One thing that must be said about the 15 minute service on Lakeshore East, though, is that their insistence on interlining Lakeshore trips means that service is being capped on Lakeshore West even though they have no construction going on there that would preclude it. If there can't be 15 minute LSE service, it would be nice if they at least divorced it from LSW.

 

[nfitz]

One thing that must be said about the 15 minute service on Lakeshore East, though, is that their insistence on interlining Lakeshore trips means that service is being capped on Lakeshore West even though they have no construction going on there that would preclude it. If there can't be 15 minute LSE service, it would be nice if they at least divorced it from LSW.

I don't think the inconvenience of all the extra trains outweighs the gains.

If the frequency must be different on each part of the line, you just terminate some trains at Union - like they already do on weekends when one side is hourly and the other on every 30-minutes (during construction). Which I've never seen being problematic (other than crushing issues and people having to wait half-an-hour for the next train, that may be even worse if both sides were hourly.

 

[T3G]

I don't think the inconvenience of all the extra trains outweighs the operational difficulties. I've never seen this manifest itself into real-time operation issues. What have you seen?

I'm a little confused by your post - what am I supposed to have seen?

It's been pointed out to me in the GO service thread that this could also arise due to a lack of crews - but I have no idea what you are referring to.