General cycling issues (Is Toronto bike friendly?)

[ADRM]

...except for the conservatives or suburban councillors on city council.

Exactly. I personally think winning the Bloor bike lane vote to make them permanent will be a monumental struggle. I'm worried.

 

[andrewpmk]

Traffic has gotten much worse on Bloor west of Avenue since the bike lane was installed. This reminds me of the "pedestrian scrambles" at Bloor & Yonge and Bay & Yonge which caused severe traffic jams in that area. Once the pedestrian scramble at Bay & Bloor was removed, traffic got a lot better in that area.

Also I see cars and trucks illegally parked in the bike lane pretty much every day.

This Bloor bike lane is not going to last. John Tory flip flops all the time and appointing Holyday and Mammoliti to the Public Works Committee makes it pretty obvious that Tory is unhappy with this bike lane and probably wants to get rid of it. Remember that Tory lives in a condo at the northeast corner of Bloor & Bedford so he must see the traffic jams every day. Let me guess that the "review" after 1 year will be saying that car travel times on Bloor have doubled in rush hour.

 

[ADRM]

Traffic has gotten much worse on Bloor west of Avenue since the bike lane was installed. This reminds me of the "pedestrian scrambles" at Bloor & Yonge and Bay & Yonge which caused severe traffic jams in that area. Once the pedestrian scramble at Bay & Bloor was removed, traffic got a lot better in that area.

Also I see cars and trucks illegally parked in the bike lane pretty much every day.

This Bloor bike lane is not going to last. John Tory flip flops all the time and appointing Holyday and Mammoliti to the Public Works Committee makes it pretty obvious that Tory is unhappy with this bike lane and probably wants to get rid of it. Remember that Tory lives in a condo at the northeast corner of Bloor & Bedford so he must see the traffic jams every day. Let me guess that the "review" after 1 year will be saying that car travel times on Bloor have doubled in rush hour.

1. You have no data to suggest that traffic has gotten worse along that stretch as a result of the bike lanes. It's always been terrible along that stretch, and you're frankly an idiot to use Bloor during rush hour to get across the city.
2. Denzil Minnan-Wong recommended Holyday and Mammoliti for appointment to PWIC, not Tory.
3. Tory's last public comment on the pilot was one of at the very worst tepid support.
4. You're absolutely right; there's a serious problem with cars of all kinds parked in the lanes, which is a fantastic reason for better enforcement and, more importantly, better design once the pilot is hopefully made permanent.

 

[andrewpmk]

1. You have no data to suggest that traffic has gotten worse along that stretch as a result of the bike lanes. It's always been terrible along that stretch, and you're frankly an idiot to use Bloor during rush hour to get across the city.
2. Denzil Minnan-Wong recommended Holyday and Mammoliti for appointment to PWIC, not Tory.
3. Tory's last public comment on the pilot was one of at the very worst tepid support.
4. You're absolutely right; there's a serious problem with cars of all kinds parked in the lanes, which is a fantastic reason for better enforcement and, more importantly, better design once the pilot is hopefully made permanent.

Have you actually been along Bloor Street recently? I walk or take the subway there most days. Traffic is MUCH worse around Avenue Road than it was before the bike lane was put in. The road narrows from 4 lanes east of Avenue to 2 lanes west of Avenue and it is a major bottleneck. The section of Bloor west of Avenue used to be 4 lanes though parking was allowed in off peak times (see Google Street View).

There were a lot of bikes riding along Bloor Street in the summer, but the vast majority disappeared when the weather got cold. Also I see illegally parked cars and trucks pretty much every day (and parking enforcement people going after them, there is a constant cat and mouse game between drivers and parking enforcement).

I don't think Tory supports this bike lane and he was just pretending he did earlier this year for political reasons. Now that Gardiner rebuild/Scarborough subway/road tolls/SmartTrack have been approved, Tory has less need to compromise with council. I think that within a few years, it will be removed.

 

[ADRM]

Have you actually been along Bloor Street recently? I walk or take the subway there most days. Traffic is MUCH worse around Avenue Road than it was before the bike lane was put in. The road narrows from 4 lanes east of Avenue to 2 lanes west of Avenue and it is a major bottleneck. The section of Bloor west of Avenue used to be 4 lanes though parking was allowed in off peak times (see Google Street View).

There were a lot of bikes riding along Bloor Street in the summer, but the vast majority disappeared when the weather got cold. Also I see illegally parked cars and trucks pretty much every day (and parking enforcement people going after them, there is a constant cat and mouse game between drivers and parking enforcement).

I don't think Tory supports this bike lane and he was just pretending he did earlier this year for political reasons. Now that Gardiner rebuild/Scarborough subway/road tolls/SmartTrack have been approved, Tory has less need to compromise with council. I think that within a few years, it will be removed.

I live right off Bloor, drive my car on some stretch of it about once a week, take the bike lanes at least once a week, and shop on Bloor almost daily. So, yes, I'm somewhat familiar with it.

Vehicular traffic was bad before the bike lanes and it's still bad. It's plainly fiction to suggest otherwise, and even if it weren't, you'd still have no data to prove it.

Sadly, I imagine you're right on the money as it pertains to Tory's stance, and that's a damn shame if indeed true.

I, and many others, will fight tooth and nail for the lanes to be made permanent, and there should be protests if they're ripped out.

 

[steveintoronto]

Or preferably, constructive feedback.

Indeed, my impression of the Bloor lanes is far from glowing, and I made that clear in the comments, and also mentioned how I'd contacted the involved councillors, their staff, and staff at City Hall with zero response save for one a month later: "We'll get back to you". That was over two months ago. I even offered to get together with the survey's author to discuss the glaring problems with the design. We'll see....

I do note that according to this survey, improvements are being made before the end of the lane's assessment. That's contrary to what's been published elsewhere.

I also note they showed a pic of 'rubber barriers' being placed between the bollards in some cases. I have not seen those, albeit haven't cycled Bloor for a couple of weeks. If they think those little bumps are going to stop motorists parking askew, then they also believe in Satan Clause.

 

[steveintoronto]

Just did the survey and made sure to note that I found it safer to bike on Bloor before there were bike lanes than I do now, due to the terrible design of these bike lanes.

I'll certainly point that out to them if they contact me. The proof is not so much how Bloor was before the lanes, but how Bloor is east of Avenue Rd to about Sherbourne. There are no lanes, but other than a few bays into the wide sidewalks, there's no parking. THAT is the greatest safety factor, as it means the cars flow much more predictably, you can ensure sightlines with their mirrors, you can overtake other cyclists safely, and virtually no-one's going to open a door on you. Turn lanes are laid out as merges at the major intersections, and turns are controlled by signs and intelligent traffic light sequences.

The Bloor cycle lanes are a painted afterthought in a cesspool of bad driving conditions. "Hey, we'll paint lines to stop the alligators and poisonous snakes from biting you". It's beyond pathetic, and many cyclists haven't a clue of how it actually adds danger, not subtracts it. There are far better bike lanes in Toronto. Still lame even by US standards, let alone European, but better than Bloor. Obstructed sightlines alone are a very real danger on Bloor, not to mention cars pausing in the lanes to see when to turn into Bloor, terrible parking skills, let alone driving, passenger doors opening into lanes (the buffer is a joke), and incorrectly applied broken white lines for vehicle turns at unsignalled intersections. If a provincial inspector applying the required HTA codes were to inspect them, they'd fail. And so would any law enforcement violations also be tossed from court if tested there.

Bike lanes? Absolutely...but not ones that increase the danger rather than reduce it.

 

[steveintoronto]

I had much more room before the bike lanes to react to any potential obstacles (such as dooring, a pedestrian stepping onto the road without looking, a vehicle turning onto Bloor without checking for cyclists). The biggest problem for me using Bloor now is that cars turning onto Bloor don't check for cyclists before entering the street, which makes it very easy to get hit. This wasn't a problem before the bike lanes were put into place since I could just get into the other lane in this situation.

I'm going to attempt to address why there are different perceptions to this, I've thought about this a lot. I'm a very aggressive, accomplished cyclist. Lived and cycled in Europe and in the US. In Europe, (although this is a generalization) driving/cycling skills are much more...'developed' than they are in Ontario. It's not even a Cdn thing so much, just Ontarian, especially Toronto, and I used to drive cab and truck in this city for years, so I'm well aware of driving skills. I haven't driven in Ontario for decades, and wouldn't even try at this point. Toronto has become insane in terms of driving, whereas it was just 'very edgy' when I was driving professionally here years back. I see the same with cyclists. Many of them have little to no idea of what is necessary in terms of grace, awareness and physics to cycle safely. Many/most are very unaware of the dangers surrounding them.

So here's the thing: To those cyclists, you put lines beside them, and they feel safer, contrary to whether stats support that belief or not. *Completely physically separated* lanes will be much safer. Painted lines?....Bollards?... Nosegays? It's a sad joke, it really is. The *infrastructure* must be designed for cyclist safety, you don't paint it on the road and call it an improvement.

So I suspect 2000 is like myself, an aggressive cyclist always scanning the horizon for events before they happen, always assuming a door is going to open, always looking in mirrors to make sure they see you, and with enough muscle power to blast past a situation before it develops.

And then there's the *dangerous* aggressives..."cyclewarriors" if you will, who cut you off, pull in front of you when you stop on the wide white line at stoplights (and inevitably in the wrong gear, so you have to torque around them since they're blocking you), etc, etc.

And then there's the tring-a-ling crowd. They think if they keep ringing their bells, nothing can harm them, completely unaware that almost no motorists can hear them, just other cyclists who it puts on edge, like crying wolf. And so we have different perceptions as to whether safety has improved or not.

Frankly, I too would rather deal with sharing with motorists on a well-designed road with no parking than hordes of cyclists, many of whom haven't a clue on the needs of others.

If you add bike lanes, do it right, or don't do it at all.

 

[steveintoronto]

It's a classic snowball situation, bike lanes (even bad ones) lead to more cycling, lead to more (better) bike lanes etc. .

The great thing about Bike Lanes opposed to other infrastructure like tunnels, roads, transit etc. is that it's comparatively cheap to redesign and rebuild them.

Except *most* published info on the Bloor lanes is that they *won't* improve them before assessing 'success' or not. Which is an equation for failure. There's so many glaring problems with the way the lanes are thought-out (or not, is more like it) and implemented. The traffic enforcement I've spoken with know this, and wonder how any court will fine when the HTA and bylaws are so in apposition to much of the Bloor lane design.

Cycling the Bloor lanes to me (and I only ever do it when I feel compelled to find out if they're improved or working any better, they're far too dangerous to just get place to place when I have other things on my mind) is like cycling a tightrope. Or playing a board game for real. Wrong throw of the dice, and you're down. And most of that is down to *terrible design*. They do things on the Bloor Lanes that others (read Dutch) point out as exactly what to avoid.

I personally think winning the Bloor bike lane vote to make them permanent will be a monumental struggle. I'm worried.

It's a shell game really. What makes or breaks the Bloor experiment is little or nothing to do with cycling. It's all to do with the merchants along Bloor, and their perceptions, as many won't resort to sales figures as the basis of their vote, but to their *perception* of whether the bike lanes have affected them or not.

We see this with the Korean merchants' comments a month or so ago. Blaming lower sales on the lack of parking. Of course, almost everyone's sales are down, Bloor street, parking, bike lanes or just plain hangnails. So in many ways, we've been sold a concept that was never ours to begin with.

This is Toronto, after all.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The city plowed the pedestrian walkway along Eglinton West in Etobicoke, but not the bicycle path. This means pedestrians have to share with bicyclists.

Other bicycle path and lanes are also not plowed (IE. The Kingsway). Of course if the city does plow them, the fiscal conservatives will have a hissy fit.

 

[UserNameToronto]

I'm going to attempt to address why there are different perceptions to this, I've thought about this a lot. I'm a very aggressive, accomplished cyclist. Lived and cycled in Europe and in the US. In Europe, (although this is a generalization) driving/cycling skills are much more...'developed' than they are in Ontario. It's not even a Cdn thing so much, just Ontarian, especially Toronto, and I used to drive cab and truck in this city for years, so I'm well aware of driving skills. I haven't driven in Ontario for decades, and wouldn't even try at this point. Toronto has become insane in terms of driving, whereas it was just 'very edgy' when I was driving professionally here years back. I see the same with cyclists. Many of them have little to no idea of what is necessary in terms of grace, awareness and physics to cycle safely. Many/most are very unaware of the dangers surrounding them.

So here's the thing: To those cyclists, you put lines beside them, and they feel safer, contrary to whether stats support that belief or not. *Completely physically separated* lanes will be much safer. Painted lines?....Bollards?... Nosegays? It's a sad joke, it really is. The *infrastructure* must be designed for cyclist safety, you don't paint it on the road and call it an improvement.

So I suspect 2000 is like myself, an aggressive cyclist always scanning the horizon for events before they happen, always assuming a door is going to open, always looking in mirrors to make sure they see you, and with enough muscle power to blast past a situation before it develops.

And then there's the *dangerous* aggressives..."cyclewarriors" if you will, who cut you off, pull in front of you when you stop on the wide white line at stoplights (and inevitably in the wrong gear, so you have to torque around them since they're blocking you), etc, etc.

And then there's the tring-a-ling crowd. They think if they keep ringing their bells, nothing can harm them, completely unaware that almost no motorists can hear them, just other cyclists who it puts on edge, like crying wolf. And so we have different perceptions as to whether safety has improved or not.

Frankly, I too would rather deal with sharing with motorists on a well-designed road with no parking than hordes of cyclists, many of whom haven't a clue on the needs of others.

If you add bike lanes, do it right, or don't do it at all.

1) Every kind of cyclist seems to dislike cyclists which are not like them
2) If Toronto is going to Copenhagen-ize, then we need to pay more attention to new cyclists (what you call the "tring-a-ling" crowd) rather than the die-hards. The feeling of safety is key in making people feel comfortable and safe.

 

[Admiral Beez]

1) Every kind of cyclist seems to dislike cyclists which are not like them
2) If Toronto is going to Copenhagen-ize, then we need to pay more attention to new cyclists (what you call the "tring-a-ling" crowd) rather than the die-hards. The feeling of safety is key in making people feel comfortable and safe.

Why do we compare Toronto to Copenhagen? Toronto has about four times the population. If you want a cycle culture like Denmark's, then move to Denmark. Even if we get separated bike paths across Toronto, we're still the impatient, sociopathic, selfish and quick to escalate Torontonians we've been for a generation or more.

We'll never be like the Danes, Dutch, Swedes, or any of the friendly and seemingly sensible northern European peoples, it's not in our culture. Just look at Steve above, swaggering on about his abilities and low opinions of others who share his space - like it or not, that's the Torontonian we've all become, we're great, everyone else is an idiot or hinderance. In truth, we're all dicks.

We can't share space without raging at each other. Roads are for cars, bike paths for bikes, sidewalks for pedestrians. No one will be happy until they get their own space.

 

[ADRM]

Why do we compare Toronto to Copenhagen? Toronto has about four times the population. If you want a cycle culture like Denmark's, then move to Denmark. Even if we get separated bike paths across Toronto, we're still the impatient, sociopathic, selfish and quick to escalate Torontonians we've been for a generation or more.

We'll never be like the Danes, Dutch, Swedes, or any of the friendly and seemingly sensible northern European peoples, it's not in our culture. Just look at Steve above, swaggering on about his abilities and low opinions of others who share his space - like it or not, that's the Torontonian we've all become, we're great, everyone else is an idiot or hinderance. In truth, we're all dicks.

We can't share space without raging at each other. Roads are for cars, bike paths for bikes, sidewalks for pedestrians. No one will be happy until they get their own space.

Well that's a horrendous attitude.

 

[MisterF]

Why do we compare Toronto to Copenhagen? Toronto has about four times the population. If you want a cycle culture like Denmark's, then move to Denmark. Even if we get separated bike paths across Toronto, we're still the impatient, sociopathic, selfish and quick to escalate Torontonians we've been for a generation or more.

We'll never be like the Danes, Dutch, Swedes, or any of the friendly and seemingly sensible northern European peoples, it's not in our culture. Just look at Steve above, swaggering on about his abilities and low opinions of others who share his space - like it or not, that's the Torontonian we've all become, we're great, everyone else is an idiot or hinderance. In truth, we're all dicks.

We can't share space without raging at each other. Roads are for cars, bike paths for bikes, sidewalks for pedestrians. No one will be happy until they get their own space.

Because Minneapolis-ize doesn't quite have the same ring to it. Or New York-ize. Or Montreal-ize.

In any case, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed that a certain forumer has a rather inflated opinion of himself.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Well that's a horrendous attitude.

A horrendous observation, not an attitude, iMO.