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[Whoaccio]

This is ridiculous. Either close the thread or ban the troll. there really isn't much point in anything else.

(as an aside, I'm surprised nobody has posted on the irony of a thread started to defend Canada against supposed American libel has degenerated into what would normally be referred to as hate speech against Americans. Intentional double standard, or just unknowing hypocrisy?)

 

[kEiThZ]

Keithz:

Be careful in elevating your worth over other Canadians. Just because they don't wear uniform or put their lives at risk doesn't make them any less valuable in our society.

AoD

Alvin,

Have you ever, in all my time here seen me denigrate anybody else's worth in society? I value the contribution of every working person be he a janitor or a vice-president of a fortune 500 company. Indeed, if you look at the CEOs of fortune 500 companies you'll find a disproportionate amount of ex-military officers. The reason is simple. They are trained from day one to 'value the troops'. If there's anyone who understands humanity, it's the guy who knows how fragile it is when he's ducking into a foxhole and dodging bullets. And trust me, every one of us realizes that we are here first and foremost to serve Canadians. As cliché as it sounds, that's at the top of our minds from the time we get to work till the time we head home (and often after that as well). That's why I take offence to comments like jade_lee that we are somehow un-Canadian or don't care about Canada.

As for being worth more than other Canadians….I don't walk around all day telling people I am better than them because I am in a uniform. But I think you can acknowledge that our society does reserve some special treatment and respect for those who choose to risk (and sometimes lost) their lives in service of the country. That's why we have Rememberance Day. That's why ministers and sometimes the Governor General attend the funerals of military members. And that's why the Governor General signs the commissioning scrolls of CF officers. Our society has and always will acknowledge that there is a special relationship between the state and those who put their lives on the line for it: be it a police officer, a soldier, a customs agent or a diplomat.

 

[jade_lee]

Alvin,

Have you ever, in all my time here seen me denigrate anybody else's worth in society? I value the contribution of every working person be he a janitor or a vice-president of a fortune 500 company. Indeed, if you look at the CEOs of fortune 500 companies you'll find a disproportionate amount of ex-military officers. The reason is simple. They are trained from day one to 'value the troops'. If there's anyone who understands humanity, it's the guy who knows how fragile it is when he's ducking into a foxhole and dodging bullets. And trust me, every one of us realizes that we are here first and foremost to serve Canadians. As cliché as it sounds, that's at the top of our minds from the time we get to work till the time we head home (and often after that as well). That's why I take offence to comments like jade_lee that we are somehow un-Canadian or don't care about Canada.

As for being worth more than other Canadians….I don't walk around all day telling people I am better than them because I am in a uniform. But I think you can acknowledge that our society does reserve some special treatment and respect for those who choose to risk (and sometimes lost) their lives in service of the country. That's why we have Rememberance Day. That's why ministers and sometimes the Governor General attend the funerals of military members. And that's why the Governor General signs the commissioning scrolls of CF officers. Our society has and always will acknowledge that there is a special relationship between the state and those who put their lives on the line for it: be it a police officer, a soldier, a customs agent or a diplomat.

I don't think the average Canadian thinks fighting in Afghanistan has anything to do with anyone putting their lives on the line for Canada, it's fighting a war that does not make sense and it's risking the lives of mostly kids that we send their to fight for the politics or the madness of a few. I have not bought into the glorifying of the soldier if the war is not worthy.
We do remember our dead soldiers and mourn their sacrifice but defining people who work as soldiers or police as exceptional hardly seems appropriate when there are so many other professions in our society that serve the public in very important ways as well. It's called equality and it goes beyond defining a hero by their occupation or the opportunity afforded them.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't think the average Canadian thinks fighting in Afghanistan has anything to do with anyone putting their lives on the line for Canada, it's fighting a war that does not make sense and it's risking the lives of mostly kids that we send their to fight for the politics or the madness of a few. I have not bought into the glorifying of the soldier if the war is not worthy.
We do remember our dead soldiers and mourn their sacrifice but defining people who work as soldiers or police as exceptional hardly seems appropriate when there are so many other professions in our society that serve the public in very important ways as well. It's called equality and it goes beyond defining a hero by their occupation or the opportunity afforded them.

1) Canadians may not agree with the war, but I think you'll find very few who think the soldiers who get killed there are not deserving of honours and recognition. Military personnel do not choose where and what they do. They sign up to carry out the wishes of the people of Canada (expressed through parliament and passed down through the chain of command). If the public has a disgreement with the mission that's a political problem and should not in any way impact how society honours those who die for its whims.

2) Nobody has asked you to glorify war. I don't consider war glorious at all. I have lost good friends because of wars. I had to watch a friend come home in a casket on Sunday while another close friend escorted her body home to her devastated family, friends and spouse. None of that is glorious.

3) Nobody here has suggested that other professions are less worthy. And no military person would ever denigrate those professions…after all, that's where we end up when our military careers end. If you feel I have done such a thing here please point it out, otherwise why the false outrage? But there are certain professions (military, diplomatic corps, intelligence service, etc.) which our society does consider to be worthy of certain recognition because of the explicit bond between those professions and society. If you have a problem with this and do not feel that it meets your standard of equality I suggest you take it up with the government. Please write to the Governor General and ask her not to visit the troops or their families. You can also petition her not to sign the commissioning scrolls of military officers or attend the graduation ceremonies of RMC annually. You should also ask the PM not to offer state ceremonies and funerals for our war dead. I think you will find very few Canadians are behind you on this one.

 

[kEiThZ]

...as an aside, I'm surprised nobody has posted on the irony of a thread started to defend Canada against supposed American libel has degenerated into what would normally be referred to as hate speech against Americans. Intentional double standard, or just unknowing hypocrisy?

Truly ironic. I am often appalled at the hypocrisy of Canadians. Were it any other country, the stuff we say about Americans would border on racism. However, we make a special exception for the US when it comes to dishing out the vitriol and then get offended when they return in kind. Seriously, would anyone have ever tolerated Carolyn Parrish stepping on a doll of the French or South African President or the German Chancellor?

And this thread shows it…somebody get's all bent out of shape because a Fox newscaster 'off the air' suggests that Canada has lots of wheat and that we don't do much militarily.

 

[Dilla]

I have no need to elaborate. This lame argument that Canadians should spend more tax dollars on our military and that Americans are protecting us is ridiculous and not the Canadian way despite what the war supporters regurgitate. Canadians being ignorant of their own positions is very foreign to me indeed and those who suggest that it's the case appear to be lacking insight both for themselves being Canadian and of others who share the Canadian vision.

You sound American to me but I must admit I rarely read your posts, yawn. It's pretty obvious to me that you did not spend your formative years as a Canadian.

 

[digi]

the stuff we say about Americans would border on racism.

American is a race now?

 

[kEiThZ]

American is a race now?

Notice I said if it was another country...perhaps one with a dominant ethnicity...but that being said even if the USA don't have a dominant race that does not make some of the shenanigans Canadians partake in any less offensive or bigoted. If we don't like what they say about us, then we certainly should not be saying the same (or worse) things about our neighbours. It's a two way street.

 

[Whoaccio]

American is a race now?

According to the UN:

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life... [emphasis added]

Clearly blanket denunciations of opinions based purely on someone's descent or nationality qualify under this rubric.

For instance replace "American" with "Jew" or "Muslim":

You sound [Muslim] to me but I must admit I rarely read your posts, yawn. It's pretty obvious to me that you did not spend your formative years as a Canadian

That this is even being contested is a bit worrying, frankly.

 

[jade_lee]

American is a race now?

yes I noticed that as well!

I have a valid right to complain about the American military and our government's support of it. Until the war crimes of torture are addressed I see the previous American government leadership as war criminals who need to be prosecuted. If my fellow Canadians support what has transpired in the name of fighting the so called terrorists than I also have a right to question how valid their actions are as well and I certainly don't want them to have any power in parliment.
You can frame this discussion as you will but don't distort it completely beyond recognition.

 

[Dilla]

yes I noticed that as well

Did you also notice the post right above yours? Or did you conveniently miss that?

 

[Dilla]

yes I noticed that as well!

I have a valid right to complain about the American military and our government's support of it. Until the war crimes of torture are addressed I see the previous American government leadership as war criminals who need to be prosecuted. If my fellow Canadians support what has transpired in the name of fighting the so called terrorists than I also have a right to question how valid their actions are as well and I certainly don't want them to have any power in parliment.
You can frame this discussion as you will but don't distort it completely beyond recognition.

It seems to me you're more likely to simply ignore or dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you (remember, yawn?) or isn't "Canadian" in the way you think Canadians should be. You don't complain, you whine, and then say things like "I have no need to elaborate". Well, then I have no need to take your sanctimonious attitude seriously. Why don't you find a forum full of people who agree with you on everything about politics, it seems that's really what you're looking for. Or do you enjoy following Keithz into every thread he enters, lambasting him and then saying he's not Canadian, like you're some sort of authority on the subject?

 

[Tewder]

I don't think the average Canadian thinks fighting in Afghanistan has anything to do with anyone putting their lives on the line for Canada, it's fighting a war that does not make sense and it's risking the lives of mostly kids that we send their to fight for the politics or the madness of a few. I have not bought into the glorifying of the soldier if the war is not worthy.

Jade Lee's tireless efforts to circumscribe what the 'average' Canadian thinks and feels is positively preternatural. Who needs statistics and facts when our resident 'Kreskin' here can read minds...

Jade only glorifies the soldier when the war is worthy. Kind of says it all really, doesn't it?

 

[jade_lee]

Jade Lee's tireless efforts to circumscribe what the 'average' Canadian thinks and feels is positively preternatural. Who needs statistics and facts when our resident 'Kreskin' here can read minds...

Jade only glorifies the soldier when the war is worthy. Kind of says it all really, doesn't it?

Do you support soldiers fighting unworthy wars?
I don't support the war in Afghanistan and I don't support shipping people to prison to be tortured either.Are you suggesting I am the only Canadian that thinks this way?

 

[kEiThZ]

I have a valid right to complain about the American military and our government's support of it.

You certainly do. However, that does not give you or anybody else the right to slander that nation by painting all Americans with the same brush. That would be racism.

I don't support the war in Afghanistan and I don't support shipping people to prison to be tortured either.Are you suggesting I am the only Canadian that thinks this way?

You are not the only Canadian that thinks this way and that's fine. But it is ridiculous to suggest that others who don't think that way are somehow less Canadian than you are. That's what you have said earlier.

Are you defending this point of view: that anybody who does not subscribe to your world view is less Canadian? No rants this time. Answer the question. Yes or no. Any evasive answer and we'll know what you think. You have already suggested that I am somehow less Canadian than you because I was not born here. Let's see how far your bigotry goes.