FIXING Transit City

[Electrify]

With all the talk about saving or killing Transit City, I ask: why not fix it? LRT can be just as fast and efficient as metros/mass rapid transit, when executed properly. Unfortunately, Transit City was not going to do this. Whatever your stand is on the issue, there is no question that fumbling this rare opportunity would be a disaster. I've drawn up a map of what I would like the first phase of the system could look like:

Legend:
Yellow - Yonge-University-Spadina MRT
Green - Bloor-Danforth MRT
Purple - Sheppard LRT
Aqua - Eglinton-Scarborough LRT

Some notes:

- Stop spacing on the new LRT lines would be approximately 1000m apart, as opposed to the 400-800m currently proposed.

- When approaching an at-grade intersection, the LRT lines would be protected by railway crossing arms, as well as traffic in all directions would freeze to maximize safety

- This is only showing phase 1 of Transit City, plus the metro extension to Vaughan. Lines and extensions which are pretty much funded and ready to go. Later and possible routes and extensions such as Finch, DLR, etc. are not included. However, a DLR of some kind (TTC mass/light rapid transit or GO express rail) would be needed even more so, as commuters from Scarborough may be more likely to transfer at Eglinton rather than Bloor.

-Metro/Mass Rapid Transit: Use third rail for power. 100% grade separated from cross traffic. 6 car trains. Frequencies up to every 1.5 minutes.

Light Rapid Transit: Use overhead wires for power. Operate grade separated or have full signal priority + protected crossings at intersections. 4 car trains. Frequencies up to every 5 minutes (less at interlining points).

- Individual line maps coming soon.

Bloor-Danforth MRT:

- After Kennedy, the line would continue east along Eglinton stopping at Danforth Rd before terminating at the Eglionton GO station.

Sheppard LRT:

- The line go from Downsview in the west into Scarborough, branching into two segments after Agincourt - one to Morningside and Sheppard, and the other to UFT Scarborough via Scarborough Center.

- Between Yonge and Don Mills, it would use the subway tunnel with modified trackbed or stations to deal with the change in height of the trains. Other tunnels may be used as well

- The UFT branch would interline with the Eglinton-Scarborough line between Midland and Centennial College.

Eglinton-Scarborough LRT

- The line would go from the airport along Eglinton to Kennedy, then along the SRT alignment and beyond to Centennial College, then north to the Malvern Town Center.

- To minimize impact on drivers, would be tunneled through midtown and some form grade separation would be used on both Eglinton Ave and the LRT between the 427 and Jane St. This can include a full separation as seen on Allen Rd, semi-separation like Highway 7, or a combination of the two.

Would interline with the Sheppard LRT between Midland and Centennial College, before heading north to the Malvern Town Center.

UPDATE 1.1: Added operational characteristics, updated terminology from rapid transit/RT to mass rapid transit/MRT, corrected GO station name from Scarborough to Eglinton.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The distances between the stops and stations in the proposed Transit City are fine, as is.

Eglinton Crosstown at Weston Road should be underground station, without the crossovers or tailback tunnels. Leave the crossovers and tailback at Keele, as is.

 

[andomano]

- After Kennedy, the line would continue east along Eglinton stopping at Danforth Rd before terminating at the Scarborough GO station.

FYI, Scarborough GO station is located at St. Clair and Midland. The station you've extended the subway to is Eglinton GO station (At Eglinton and Bellamy).

 

[leopetr]

While we indulge in this, here's my preference:

Stage 1:

Finch East LRT (instead of Sheppard East)
Finch West LRT
SRT Replacement
Eglinton LRT as funded

Stage 2:

Victoria Park LRT (instead of Don Mills LRT)
Islington LRT (instead of Jane LRT)
Scarborough Malvern LRT

Doing both halves of Finch is better for network effects to my mind.

For Stage 2, I'm choosing wider streets where it's actually possible to have surface LRT all the way down to Bloor.

 

[Electrify]

FYI, Scarborough GO station is located at St. Clair and Midland. The station you've extended the subway to is Eglinton GO station (At Eglinton and Bellamy).

Fixed

 

[kEiThZ]

Nobody from Scarborough will support connecting Eglinton and the SRT over a Bloor-Danforth extension. That is priority #1 for Scarborough over everything else. And don't forget that doing anything else means screwing up transit in Scarborough for a year or more during conversion. Instead, the subway can be extended while the SRT is running. A lot of residents will appreciate that.

Connecting Eglinton and the SRT will continue to force the bulk of riders to transfer at Kennedy. Unacceptable.

It also screws up Eglinton East. That was an idiotic flaw in Transit City that should be fixed. Eglinton should be through line from Kingston Road to the airport. It can be built in phases. It can run on the street if it has to. But it should be end to end, not running up to STC.

And if Sheppard is to be extended, then do it in phases too. Nobody says the thing has to reach STC in one shot. Even Rob Ford will back off on that one eventually. Just take it to VP for now. Or if it's really possible, then to Kennedy/Agincourt. I would actually go East and West over more east...so Downsview to VP in Phase 1 if the money was there. Then let's see how 'useless' the line is when ridership soars as it connects two subway lines.

 

[Electrify]

Nobody from Scarborough will support connecting Eglinton and the SRT over a Bloor-Danforth extension. That is priority #1 for Scarborough over everything else. And don't forget that doing anything else means screwing up transit in Scarborough for a year or more during conversion. Instead, the subway can be extended while the SRT is running. A lot of residents will appreciate that.

Connecting Eglinton and the SRT will continue to force the bulk of riders to transfer at Kennedy. Unacceptable.

The idea here is that those heading from northeast Scarborough to downtown Toronto would take the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT rather than the Danforth line. This still gets rid of a transfer, and allows the LRT to take advantage of current infrastructure on the line. If it were to be all subway, then you would either have to rebuild Kennedy station due to the turn, or take the line on an alternate route. Both options would cost far more, take much longer, and most likely never be completed.

It also screws up Eglinton East. That was an idiotic flaw in Transit City that should be fixed. Eglinton should be through line from Kingston Road to the airport. It can be built in phases. It can run on the street if it has to. But it should be end to end, not running up to STC.

I personally think this setup is unique. It takes advantage of the alignment at Kennedy to allow the line to be extended with minimal headache, plus allows it to make a second connection with the GO Lakeshore line. But the whole idea about this is to look at ways to improve the current Transit City design while taking current restraints into effect, so extended (or even branching) Eglinton east rather than turning it north instead of extending the Danforth line is not out of the question.

Would be interesting to see if the majority of those coming from east of Kennedy along Eglinton transfer to the subway, or continue along Eglinton.

And if Sheppard is to be extended, then do it in phases too. Nobody says the thing has to reach STC in one shot. Even Rob Ford will back off on that one eventually. Just take it to VP for now. Or if it's really possible, then to Kennedy/Agincourt. I would actually go East and West over more east...so Downsview to VP in Phase 1 if the money was there. Then let's see how 'useless' the line is when ridership soars as it connects two subway lines.[/QUOTE]

Going to edit my intro post, but would like to note that in this fantasy map, the difference between rapid transit and light rapid transit lines is that RT lines would use third rail, while LRT would use overhead wires. LRT trains would be of the same width, but only about 4 cars long compared to 6 on full RT lines. Also because LRTs would have full signal priority with protected crossings, headways would be limited to about 4-5 minutes peak as not to paralyze traffic (with the exception of interlining parts). Since this is not an issue with full RT lines, headways could be as tight as every 1.5 minutes.

The benefits of "retrofitting" Sheppard to LRT is not only would it eliminate a transfer, but it would make the extensions quite affordable and allow for interlining with the Eglinton-Scarborough line. The EAs are done with Sheppard, the funding is in place, and the blueprints are all in the hands of the contractors (I even delivered some of them). And like I said, other parts of Sheppard could be tunneled as well. I'll probably show this when I get around to doing individual line maps, I'll probably show the only surface part of Sheppard between subway lines around Bathurst and Senlac.

 

[gweed123]

Electrify:

I find it kind of funny that you denounce the alternate subway alignment to STC as "costing far more, take much longer, and most likely will never be completed", yet on the very next line you praise how an extension of B-D east along Eglinton would be a good idea. If it wasn't a good idea to extend B-D to STC along a corridor other than the current SRT corridor (ie along a Danforth-McCowan alignment), why would it be a good idea to extend it further east along Eglinton? It would seem to me that an extension of B-D eastward would cost much more than the current LRT proposal, take much longer as it hasn't even remotely been studied, and stands about a 0.5% chance of ever actually being built. How can you use a set of criteria to denounce one project, yet praise another? Especially when the project you denounce has a much higher chance of actually being built.

Given the fact that Phase 1 of the DRL will likely only be built from downtown to the Danforth (ie not extended up to Eglinton, and probably won't be for another 10 years or so after the 1st phase opens), extending B-D to STC makes a lot more sense than extending Eglinton, simply for the fact that it would allow access to the DRL, something that Eglinton wouldn't.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Nobody from Scarborough will support connecting Eglinton and the SRT over a Bloor-Danforth extension. That is priority #1 for Scarborough over everything else.

Do you speak for all Scarborough residents? I was once a Scarborough resident a few years ago and I certainly don't want you to speak for me if I ever return there.

Connecting Eglinton and the SRT will continue to force the bulk of riders to transfer at Kennedy. Unacceptable.

Transfers are a part of reality and will continue to be so due to political "gerrymandering." Learn to accept to it, it may frustrate you less!

And if Sheppard is to be extended, then do it in phases too. Nobody says the thing has to reach STC in one shot. Even Rob Ford will back off on that one eventually. Just take it to VP for now. Or if it's really possible, then to Kennedy/Agincourt. I would actually go East and West over more east...so Downsview to VP in Phase 1 if the money was there. Then let's see how 'useless' the line is when ridership soars as it connects two subway lines.

Probably won't be happening, but hey, who am I to tell you to stop dreaming.

 

[kEiThZ]

Do you speak for all Scarborough residents? I was once a Scarborough resident a few years ago and I certainly don't want you to speak for me if I ever return there.

I don't claim to speak for anybody. It is my opinion that the majority of Scarborough residents would consider the replacement of the SRT without interrupting transit service in Scarborough to be their top priority. If you have an opinion otherwise, you are entitled to express it.

By the way, right up until Transit City, most Scarborough councillors were adamant about extending the Bloor-Danforth line. Are you going to suggest they were reflecting the wishes of their constituents?

Transfers are a part of reality and will continue to be so due to political "gerrymandering." Learn to accept to it, it may frustrate you less!

I didn't say that transfers should be completely elimintated. But illogical transfers should certainly be minimized. When tens of thousands of riders are basically riding between two points (Lawrence, STC) and Kennedy station, forcing a transfer on them is plain dumb. Those riders all know it. Even politicians are catching on. That's why Smitherman (who was relatively pro-TC) promised a subway extension here too.

Probably won't be happening, but hey, who am I to tell you to stop dreaming.

It's a good thing one of us thinks in terms longer than 5-10 years.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

I don't claim to speak for anybody. It is my opinion that the majority of Scarborough residents would consider the replacement of the SRT without interrupting transit service in Scarborough to be their top priority. If you have an opinion otherwise, you are entitled to express it.

Could have fooled me, you sure implied otherwise.

By the way, right up until Transit City, most Scarborough councillors were adamant about extending the Bloor-Danforth line. Are you going to suggest they were reflecting the wishes of their constituents?

Source?

I didn't say that transfers should be completely elimintated. But illogical transfers should certainly be minimized. When tens of thousands of riders are basically riding between two points (Lawrence, STC) and Kennedy station, forcing a transfer on them is plain dumb. Those riders all know it. Even politicians are catching on. That's why Smitherman (who was relatively pro-TC) promised a subway extension here too.

Going forward, yes, but existing transfers are pointless to remove due to cost. Why reinvent the wheel? The only exception to that is when the existing infrastructure is all but collapsing on itself.

It's a good thing one of us thinks in terms longer than 5-10 years.

Are you a politican with a transit vision that's financially achievable? Because, if you are, then I won't take what you just said there with a grain of salt.

 

[kEiThZ]

The idea here is that those heading from northeast Scarborough to downtown Toronto would take the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT rather than the Danforth line. This still gets rid of a transfer, and allows the LRT to take advantage of current infrastructure on the line. If it were to be all subway, then you would either have to rebuild Kennedy station due to the turn, or take the line on an alternate route. Both options would cost far more, take much longer, and most likely never be completed.

If you're going to mid-town it makes sense. The majority of Scarborough residents are bound for the core. You will be forcing lots of them to transfer. The only way your plan works out is Eglinton and the BD line both take the same amount of time to reach Yonge/Bloor. Unless you plan on Eglinton being tunnelled the whole way to Kennedy and some lightning quick transfers at Yonge/Eglinton, that's not going to possible. Just do the math.

And again, you have ignored a huge part of the motivation for extending the subway along a new alignment: not closing down the SRT during construction. Do you have any idea what it would be like to have those tens of thousands of riders busing to Kennedy? I will bet good money that any mayor that does this will pretty much lose every ward in Scarborough come election time.

I personally think this setup is unique. It takes advantage of the alignment at Kennedy to allow the line to be extended with minimal headache, plus allows it to make a second connection with the GO Lakeshore line. But the whole idea about this is to look at ways to improve the current Transit City design while taking current restraints into effect, so extended (or even branching) Eglinton east rather than turning it north instead of extending the Danforth line is not out of the question.

I get what you are trying to do. I really do. And you are to be commended for thinking outside the box. But in the real world, there are real riders with real travel patterns. You have to deal with where people are coming from and where they are going. In the SRT corridor, the bulk of the ridership is connecting 3 points: Kennedy, Lawrence East, STC. Connecting them with a subway extension makes sense.

Two other points here. What you deem a minimal headache is not. Scarborough would be down to 3 subway stations serving the whole borough for the duration of the SRT refurb. That's not some small inconvenience.

Next, the Lakeshore line doesn't get up to Eglinton.

Would be interesting to see if the majority of those coming from east of Kennedy along Eglinton transfer to the subway, or continue along Eglinton.

My experience is anecdotal....but I see most people transferring. And I would think anybody continuing along Eglinton probably would not be going that far.

And while travel patterns will change a fair bit with the Eglinton LRT, like I said before, nobody will be taking this line as an alternative to the Bloor-Danforth subway unless they are due for mid-town or points north.

Going to edit my intro post, but would like to note that in this fantasy map, the difference between rapid transit and light rapid transit lines is that RT lines would use third rail, while LRT would use overhead wires. LRT trains would be of the same width, but only about 4 cars long compared to 6 on full RT lines. Also because LRTs would have full signal priority with protected crossings, headways would be limited to about 4-5 minutes peak as not to paralyze traffic (with the exception of interlining parts). Since this is not an issue with full RT lines, headways could be as tight as every 1.5 minutes.

The benefits of "retrofitting" Sheppard to LRT is not only would it eliminate a transfer, but it would make the extensions quite affordable and allow for interlining with the Eglinton-Scarborough line. The EAs are done with Sheppard, the funding is in place, and the blueprints are all in the hands of the contractors (I even delivered some of them). And like I said, other parts of Sheppard could be tunneled as well. I'll probably show this when I get around to doing individual line maps, I'll probably show the only surface part of Sheppard between subway lines around Bathurst and Senlac.

I am actually sympathetic to this viewpoint. I know people will say it's a waste of money to conver Sheppard to LRT. But I agree that if the total costs (of conversion and extensions) come in lower than the subway, that it might be well worth studying.

 

[kEiThZ]

Source?

http://www.mikedelgrande.ca/news/oneill_aug25_06.htm

Quickest I could find on Google. Scarborough's long term vision has always included a subway to STC, even if they are willing to concede to using something else in the short-term....like in the above article.

I am sure that you'll find that now that a subway to STC is on the table again, the councillors from Scarborough aren't going to be as supportive of SRT round II.

Going forward, yes, but existing transfers are pointless to remove due to cost. Why reinvent the wheel? The only exception to that is when the existing infrastructure is all but collapsing on itself.

The SRT has to be replaced one way or another. So the choice is to shut it down for 1-2 years, completely disrupt transit in Scarborough, and then still have a line which requires a transfer. Or we can keep the SRT in service, and build two subway stops at the two stations that generate the vast majority of the SRT's ridership: Lawrence East and STC.

Are you a politican with a transit vision that's financially achievable? Because, if you are, then I won't take what you just said there with a grain of salt.

Anything is achievable if you have a long view. We can build 50 kms of subway and it'll be financially acheivable if we do it incrementally and it's spread out over a sufficient time period. I think of building a good transit system and a good city as something that should take a generation or more. Just like the old Cathedrals of Europe. It took us a generation to get into this mess. It's going to take just as long to get out. Kneejerk transit plans that string LRTs everywhere aren't going to solve anything in the long run, except perhaps to overcrowd the Yonge line.

In any event, why so argumentative? You bitter that the rest of the city didn't absolutely endorse Transit City by electing Pantalone?

 

[JWBF]

kEiThZ: I live in Scarborough, and still feel the disgust, and contempt for Davis' foul-up of the SRT. All these points of conversion and what is best would be moot if the original plan was followed. While I agree that the SRT now has more than enough riders in my opinion (if not in fact) to properly support an extension of the B-D line; the development of Scarborough Centre and area also proves this well. However, all the plans in the world are nothing without money and the eventual conflicts with NIMBY camps. And yes, inferring you speak for ALL Scarborough residents is as short sighted as a politician in heat; you do need to read what you do write, we all do.

Electrify: What you propose is interesting, and thank you for sharing. However, I think a Finch LRV should exist at least from Yonge to Humber, preferably extended to Wild Water Kingdom's area in the future if not at first. I also find it a shame that you omitted any transit solution for downtown, and more importantly any relief line(s) running north-south to relive congestion of the B-D & Y-U-S lines.

---

I just wish the purposed Sheppard, Eglinton, and Queen (with updates) subway lines were completed.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

http://www.mikedelgrande.ca/news/oneill_aug25_06.htm

Quickest I could find on Google. Scarborough's long term vision has always included a subway to STC, even if they are willing to concede to using something else in the short-term....like in the above article.

I am sure that you'll find that now that a subway to STC is on the table again, the councillors from Scarborough aren't going to be as supportive of SRT round II.

I can't argue with the Scarborough Mirror!

Even with the with the planned SRT refurbishment set at 5 years from now, there is still time to get an EA for subway (don't believe one has been done), go through the planning and design process et al so that this could happen before the games get here. My only issue is that there won't be any kind of rapid transit service to Centennial college and certainly none to Sheppard, which kind of irks me a bit.

The SRT has to be replaced one way or another. So the choice is to shut it down for 1-2 years, completely disrupt transit in Scarborough, and then still have a line which requires a transfer. Or we can keep the SRT in service, and build two subway stops at the two stations that generate the vast majority of the SRT's ridership: Lawrence East and STC.

I agree that something has to be done, but if we go the subway route, then I can't see it ever going past STC, at least not my lifetime. Add to that, an opportunity to build an LRT network hub from there should not be missed, since it is a major node, might as well develop it as such. If only the government could present a carrot to the private sector to initiate transit oriented development. I personally don't want just the subway there and Scarborough misses out on more transit infrastructure.

Anything is achievable if you have a long view. We can build 50 kms of subway and it'll be financially acheivable if we do it incrementally and it's spread out over a sufficient time period. I think of building a good transit system and a good city as something that should take a generation or more. Just like the old Cathedrals of Europe. It took us a generation to get into this mess. It's going to take just as long to get out. Kneejerk transit plans that string LRTs everywhere aren't going to solve anything in the long run, except perhaps to overcrowd the Yonge line.

In any event, why so argumentative? You bitter that the rest of the city didn't absolutely endorse Transit City by electing Pantalone?

Long views are great if we elect officials with long terms, but that's not the reality. How many times have we seen someone new come and tear a plan to shreds only to start from the beginning again?

I'm argumentative because the plan is there and many hurdles have been cleared and at least something is happening (was now), and I fear that nothing will happen again. I'm not anti-subway by any stretch, in fact, I think if at least a part of TC is constructed, it may spur even more future transit investment down the road because voters would realize, and think/say, "oh wait! transit expansion of any kind is a good thing!" and they would vote as such. As for stringing LRTs everywhere, even I didn't think all of TC would be built, but it was a start and who knows, maybe LRT starts in one corridor, subway will start somewhere else. That's my hope anyhow.

And no, I'm not bitter, just disappointed. Yes, I voted Joe Pants, but it was because when I went to vote @ 9pm, Ford had already won and I went with my original candidate, instead of Smithers.

But my main point is: BUILD SOMETHING! ANYTHING! Except BRTs, because this city deserves better than that transit mode.