News   Nov 05, 2024
News Roundup for November 5, 2024
 241     0 
News   Nov 05, 2024
Autumn's Embrace
 342     0 
News   Nov 04, 2024
Catching Up on Two Years of Construction at Topped-Off Leaside Commons
 768     0 

First Step - Fire your property manager?

urbanoverview said:
Wonderful, never knew about it. I've requested to join!

I still like the idea of a chat area for networking, it's a bit more interactive I find. So I'll keep it up for a while, but if it doesn't take off after a while I can always shut it down.
Click to expand...
Does anyone know of a listing of reviews of property managers in Toronto area?

avatarreb said:
An interesting read by Charles Hanes about the role of the service companies in new condos (i.e. the property manager, "concierge", etc...). What are people's opinions on this; Fear mongering or does he have a point?

http://www.simplycondos.com/market_today/2008/fire_property_manager.htm

An excert:
Click to expand...
That link goes to 404 now. Does anyone know of a site or a link to something that includes reviews of property managers? We are looking to hire a new one and there isn't much info out there.
 
CarolBesler said:
Does anyone know of a listing of reviews of property managers in Toronto area?


That link goes to 404 now. Does anyone know of a site or a link to something that includes reviews of property managers? We are looking to hire a new one and there isn't much info out there.
Click to expand...
I have never seen any published reviews of PM companies and you probably need to make some calls to other condos of about the same age, size and demographics. Some companies are better with larger well established buildings while other seem to do best with smaller ones. You need to remember too that property management has two components: the back-office functions and the actual Manager assigned to your building. In my opinion you can survive a less than perfect company if your Manager is OK but you should TRY to get both!
 
DSC said:
I have never seen any published reviews of PM companies and you probably need to make some calls to other condos of about the same age, size and demographics. Some companies are better with larger well established buildings while other seem to do best with smaller ones. You need to remember too that property management has two components: the back-office functions and the actual Manager assigned to your building. In my opinion you can survive a less than perfect company if your Manager is OK but you should TRY to get both!
Click to expand...
Any recommendations?
 
I am finding property management companies to be a nightmare in general. I joined the board in my building to protect my investment because I saw repeated cases of neglect on everything from basic security (i.e. perimeter doors not latching, broken locks and handles), plumbing and mechanical systems failing and even fire and electrical code violations. We had two fire stairwells that were pitch black because nobody bothered to change the bulbs in years. After I got on the board I spent a few months documenting deficiencies and brought these to the attention of other directors and the property manager, the property manager and regional head got defensive, accused me of micromanaging and said board members shouldn't be involved in operations and according to the Condo Act board members are just regular owners outside of board meetings. The condo industry seems doomed to fail if board members aren't allowed to look behind the curtain and offer expertise and assistance.

I was told there are more condos than property managers nowadays. Every city is busy building condos but there isn't a steady supply of trained professionals to fill these building management roles. Many property managers split their time between 2 or 3 sites, a couple hours a week to meet demand at the expense of service quality. We are supposed to have a full time property manager but they are rarely there at scheduled hours. They often leave midday to run cheques to head office on the other end of the city when they could literally just walk to the bank across the street and directly deposit cheques into the corporation's account with our account number. So far none of the condo property managers I've met have proper facility management experience like you see on the commercial side. Communication skills are lacking. None of them know how to read construction blueprints, none of them have fully toured our building and know where things are and as a result our reserve fund study was grossly underestimated and completely missing the lifecycle replacement of certain mechanical system components. Most condo property managers seem to only be good for basic admin tasks like processing invoices, email, and phone calls. The backoffice also never flagged pre-authorized debits when we switched management companies a few years back so we were paying thousands annually for a service we don't use anymore. Overall, a frustrating expereince.
 
Last edited:
000 said:
I am finding property management companies to be a nightmare in general. I joined the board in my building to protect my investment because I saw repeated cases of neglect on everything from basic security (i.e. perimeter doors not latching, broken locks and handles), plumbing and mechanical systems failing and even fire and electrical code violations. We had two fire stairwells that were pitch black because nobody bothered to change the bulbs in years. After I got on the board I spent a few months documenting deficiencies and brought these to the attention of other directors and the property manager, the property manager and regional head got defensive, accused me of micromanaging and said board members shouldn't be involved in operations and according to the Condo Act board members are just regular owners outside of board meetings. The condo industry seems doomed to fail if board members aren't allowed to look behind the curtain and offer expertise and assistance.

I was told there are more condos than property managers nowadays. Every city is busy building condos but there isn't a steady supply of trained professionals to fill these building management roles. Many property managers split their time between 2 or 3 sites, a couple hours a week to meet demand at the expense of service quality. We are supposed to have a full time property manager but they are rarely there at scheduled hours. They often leave midday to run cheques to head office on the other end of the city when they could literally just walk to the bank across the street and directly deposit cheques into the corporation's account with our account number. So far none of the condo property managers I've met have proper facility management experience like you see on the commercial side. Communication skills are lacking. None of them know how to read construction blueprints, none of them have fully toured our building and know where things are and as a result our reserve fund study was grossly underestimated and completely missing the lifecycle replacement of certain mechanical system components. Most condo property managers seem to only be good for basic admin tasks like processing invoices, email, and phone calls. The backoffice also never flagged pre-authorized debits when we switched management companies a few years back so we were paying thousands annually for a service we don't use anymore. Overall, a frustrating expereince.
Click to expand...
There are good managers and good PM companies and there are bad ones. I have seen both and it certainly is sometimes necessary for a Director to 'take over' and shake some cages. However, the old saying 'directors direct and managers manage' is really very true. If a director is going to start managing (or managing the manager) they need to have the rest of the Board on side; the PM company is hired by the Board and it is up to the whole Board to assess their services and decide if they should look for a new company or have one Director work with them to deal with observed problems. The reserve fund study must be done by a professional (usually an engineer) and the RF company is also hired by the Corporation (i.e. the Board) NOT the Manager. It sounds as though your whole BOARD needs to take their responsibilities seriously; assess their manager and their PM company, tell them what they think is not being done or could be done better and offer whatever help they can to 'sort things out'. That said, there is a huge shortage of qualified Property Managers and finding BOTH a good manager AND a good company is NOT easy!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 000
When I was on a board, this was the biggest issue. Directors who thought they could do a better job than the manager and who spent their time trying to micro manage and questioning every action. Super frustrating for the manager, to say the least.

I definitely agree that a skilled and knowledgeable PM is a wonderful find … problem is, the company will want to take that person and use them elsewhere (because everybody wants them), so when you find one, hang on!
 
DSC said:
There are good managers and good PM companies and there are bad ones. I have seen both and it certainly is sometimes necessary for a Director to 'take over' and shake some cages. However, the old saying 'directors direct and managers manage' is really very true. If a director is going to start managing (or managing the manager) they need to have the rest of the Board on side; the PM company is hired by the Board and it is up to the whole Board to assess their services and decide if they should look for a new company or have one Director work with them to deal with observed problems. The reserve fund study must be done by a professional (usually an engineer) and the RF company is also hired by the Corporation (i.e. the Board) NOT the Manager. It sounds as though your whole BOARD needs to take their responsibilities seriously; assess their manager and their PM company, tell them what they think is not being done or could be done better and offer whatever help they can to 'sort things out'. That said, there is a huge shortage of qualified Property Managers and finding BOTH a good manager AND a good company is NOT easy!
Click to expand...
Reserve fund engineers are hired by the board but obtaining proposals and scopes are still done by the property manager. If the property manager is withholding information about the property or simply don't know the details of its construction due to unpreparedness, when the RF engineer is walking around, if they aren't carrying a floorplan, they miss stuff and you end up with a situation like ours: budgets that don't represent the real cost of maintaining the building. There are a small amount of hours allocated for site visits in a reserve fund study so it's important a knowledgeable manager is giving direction and help the process go smoothly.

The other issue is property managers have high turnover. If you look at 10 random buildings, even if the property management company stays the same, the property manager changes every few years, if not due to workload, they are able to switch companies for a higher salary and relocate to another site in the never-ending supply of new condos. The talent supply issue is real. Directors depend on a managers input to make decisions. If the manager doesn't know half the details of a property it's unsustainable to run a city of high rise communities this way.
 
Last edited:
000 said:
Reserve fund engineers are hired by the board but obtaining proposals and scopes are still done is still done by the property manager. If the property manager is withholding information about the property or simply don't know the details of its construction due to unpreparedness, when the RF engineer is walking around, if they aren't carrying a floorplan, they miss stuff and you end up with a situation like ours: budgets that don't represent the real cost of maintaining the building. There are a small amount of hours allocated for site visits in a reserve fund study so it's important a knowledgeable manager is giving direction and help the process go smoothly.

The other issue is property managers have high turnover. If you look at 10 random buildings, even if the property management company stays the same, the property manager changes every few years, if not due to workload, they are able to switch companies for a higher salary and relocate to another site in the never-ending supply of new condos. The talent supply issue is real. Directors depend on a managers input to make decisions. If the manager doesn't know half the details of a property it's unsustainable to run a city of high rise communities this way.
Click to expand...
A good Board will not only take full responsibility for hiring the RF Engineers but will ensure the scope is clearly defined. If a RF engineer cannot see enough or lacks info like plans or maintenance reports it is their responsibility to say so. Of course, having a good and experienced PM is important but at the end of the day the BOARD are responsible,

You are certainly right that there is a great shortage of Managers (esp. experienced ones) as it is really not a very nice job with poor hours and not great pay.
 
DSC said:
A good Board will not only take full responsibility for hiring the RF Engineers but will ensure the scope is clearly defined. If a RF engineer cannot see enough or lacks info like plans or maintenance reports it is their responsibility to say so. Of course, having a good and experienced PM is important but at the end of the day the BOARD are responsible,

You are certainly right that there is a great shortage of Managers (esp. experienced ones) as it is really not a very nice job with poor hours and not great pay.
Click to expand...
I believe we are paying over market rate, our junior PM with 3 years exp. earns near $100K/yr salary. Anybody would be challenged arriving at a building where improper care caused years-worth of work to catch up on. I am a strong believer in preventative maintenance to control costs, but in practice we are seeing more reactive maintenance, i.e. doing repairs only after a problem has occured. Water damage claims from condos across Canada ballooned so much in recent years, even the insurance companies had to adjust premiums. To me this is a systemic issue... the condo industry need more regulations
 
000 said:
I believe we are paying over market rate, our junior PM with 3 years exp. earns near $100K/yr salary. Anybody would be challenged arriving at a building where improper care caused years-worth of work to catch up on. I am a strong believer in preventative maintenance to control costs, but in practice we are seeing more reactive maintenance, i.e. doing repairs only after a problem has occured. Water damage claims from condos across Canada ballooned so much in recent years, even the insurance companies had to adjust premiums. To me this is a systemic issue... the condo industry need more regulations
Click to expand...
Are you on your Board and are you speaking for your Board? If so, then the BOARD should look into this. Most condos do not hire Managers themselves, they hire PM Companies and the fee they charge is for the time of the PM plus all the (considerable) back-office time to process fees, pay bills and so on. Is the $1-00K you talk of the total fee paid to a PM company or what you think your PM gets annually. When we went looking for a PM company several years ago we got several bids, all based on a monthly cost per Unit and all were 'in the same ballpark'. I have no idea (and really don't care) what our (excellent) PM earns as we only see and know the per Unit cost for 'the package'. I assume she receives a competitive salary from her company.

You note the problem with condo insurance re burst pipes, this is FAR more of a CONSTRUCTION problem than a PM problem and burst pipes in high-rises happen in most kinds of high-rise construction (particularly in buildings built in the last 20 years). Clearly one does not want to start replacing perfectly good plumbing too soon, equally you do not want to wait too long. The general rule is to assess the number of pin-hole leaks you have - like most things it is a balance.
 
Our property management company hired our property manager but we pay all staff year end bonuses from our operating fund, 100K is total comp. The value of our management contract is higher than what the manager is actually paid due to said backoffice overhead etc.

There is not only the issue of burst pipes - there are also drain backups that can be fault of either owner or the corporation. If backups are not dealt with in a timely manner, the overflow of water to all units below can cause tens of thousands worth of damage. Water damage seems like such a frequent incident across the GTA sometimes we have trouble getting trades to come same day to resolve the issues. We are fortunate now to have finally found a reliable super, all condos are at mercy of good staffing.
 
Last edited:
000 said:
Our property management company hired our property manager but we pay all staff year end bonuses from our operating fund, 100K is total comp. The value of our management contract is higher than what the manager is actually paid due to said backoffice overhead etc.

There is not only the issue of burst pipes - there are also drain backups that can be fault of either owner or the corporation. If backups are not dealt with in a timely manner, the overflow of water to all units below can cause tens of thousands worth of damage. Water damage seems like such a frequent incident across the GTA sometimes we have trouble getting trades to come same day to resolve the issues.
Click to expand...
Drains should certainly be flushed regularly and any blockages investigated to see if there is a real 'pipe problem' rather than the usual problem of residents pouring fat into drains which forms fat-bergs and flushing 'flushable wipes" - which are NOT flushable. Frequent resident education is also a good idea!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 000
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top