Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Jonny5]

"overdesigning, the cycle of lack of knowledge retention <> reliance on external consultants, inflated soft costs"

Yeah, but lots of people including myself like to be technically correct. So there is a lot of "ummm ackshually, TTC/Metrolinx aren't that wasteful, we don't have slave labour and we are safe!/Barcelona Line 9/10 is a metro so we can't compare it to Line 6 Finch West".

Even if a lot of this technically correct info is good to get on the record, I think a significant part of it misses the bigger picture. Why are our soft costs more than the hard cost of construction itself (labour, equipment, materials).

Why are our transit authorities and politicians less transparent on transit than those in ostensibly more corrupt countries. Italy is not some shining beacon of morality with regards to the intersection of government and "private enterprise"...

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Italians aren't building much of anything else, so their construction workers will take lower margins to do the tough work. We're building more condo towers and apartment towers right at this moment now than Rome has had built in probably the last 10+ years, maybe even since 2008 and the credit collapse. They also aren't building new highways or other things. It's a stagnant country and costs of labour are cheapo because youth either don't want that work, or they want any kind of work they can find and will settle for less pay to even have a job.

Then you have the migrant labourers on top of that, which Italian politicians will publicly tell you are evil criminals who should be deported, but privately are OK with them being paid meagre wages to work on construction projects in the many indirect ways behind the public eye, like at warehouses and transporting materials from site to site and as site security. They don't want to give that up gold mine of near-free labour.

 

[Steve X]

"overdesigning, the cycle of lack of knowledge retention <> reliance on external consultants, inflated soft costs"

Yeah, but lots of people including myself like to be technically correct. So there is a lot of "ummm ackshually, TTC/Metrolinx aren't that wasteful, we don't have slave labour and we are safe!/Barcelona Line 9/10 is a metro so we can't compare it to Line 6 Finch West".

Even if a lot of this technically correct info is good to get on the record, I think a significant part of it misses the bigger picture. Why are our soft costs more than the hard cost of construction itself (labour, equipment, materials).

Why are our transit authorities and politicians less transparent on transit than those in ostensibly more corrupt countries. Italy is not some shining beacon of morality with regards to the intersection of government and "private enterprise"...

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So some of these so called soft cost is associated with EAs and all the crap that our government requires which is non-existence in some countries. It could be requirement for sound/vibration monitoring.
Contingency is always a fun one. This rainy day fund always turns into a pool of money that contractors see as extra money they can try to earn.
We require every inch of tracks to be carefully designed by engineers while some countries would just build on the fly based on rough works. That would add up to the cost.

 

[Ward8]

I think the problem most of us here have (the one's who are complaining about the speed) is that when you've spent billions to upgrade a line to have better and more reliable transit, only to operate in such a way that doenst fully maximize the potential.

I agree with this in my post. I just wanted to articulate that the idea that it'll be *barely* faster than the 36 bus, when most riders (most people travel during peak times) are going to see a 40% drop in travel times is just incorrect. Sure a late night bus that is only hitting a fraction of the stops is probably faster, but it doesn't represent the typical 36 rider.

I hope they improve operations here and on the other dedicated lines. I understand the frustration, because I share in it, but I know if I still rode the 36 like I used to, it would make a huge difference in my life.

 

[Jonny5]

I agree with this in my post. I just wanted to articulate that the idea that it'll be *barely* faster than the 36 bus, when most riders (most people travel during peak times) are going to see a 40% drop in travel times is just incorrect. Sure a late night bus that is only hitting a fraction of the stops is probably faster, but it doesn't represent the typical 36 rider.

I hope they improve operations here and on the other dedicated lines. I understand the frustration, because I share in it, but I know if I still rode the 36 like I used to, it would make a huge difference in my life.

Yeah, you need a time-of-day weighted average of speed/rider to make a fair comparison. Unfortunately, data like that is hard to come by. Long a legendary issue with TTCs amalgamated statistics, where the blue night bus on a Sunday night counts into the "average" performance at equal-weight to a Tuesday morning 8:00 a.m. trip.

 

[T3G]

I'm going to do something a little crazy here, and provide actual numbers and data, something which this thread has been appallingly light on in the last while.

TransSee offers average travel time data. It's a free feature for streetcar routes, and a premium feature for buses.

Here is what it says for the 36 as of November 24, a Monday, heading westbound.

My search, showing this is a comparison of travel times between Finch West station and Highway 27/Humber College Boulevard.

The full data:

This is a summary of the data. The average travel time is 36:51 minutes, against a scheduled time of 45:13 (how's that for schedule writing and adherence?). The quickest trip was completed in 23:49 against a scheduled time of 32:59, while the highest travel time was 1 hour and 3 minutes, against a scheduled time of 56:18.

As a note, the sub-30 minute trips chiefly occur shortly before midnight.

And, for the same day, the information going eastbound:

Now that there are actual numbers here to capture an average day in the operation of a 36 bus, do with this information what thou wilst.

As an aside, a sharp eyed commenter on Steve Munro's blog pointed out some weird aspects to the publicly shown LRT schedule:

Sounds to me like they'd be able to improve the quality of the trip quite significantly purely by employing someone who actually knows how to write a schedule.

 

[cplchanb]

I'm going to do something a little crazy here, and provide actual numbers and data, something which this thread has been appallingly light on in the last while.

TransSee offers average travel time data. It's a free feature for streetcar routes, and a premium feature for buses.

Here is what it says for the 36 as of November 24, a Monday, heading westbound.

My search, showing this is a comparison of travel times between Finch West station and Highway 27/Humber College Boulevard.

View attachment 700141
The full data:
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This is a summary of the data. The average travel time is 36:51 minutes, against a scheduled time of 45:13 (how's that for schedule writing and adherence?). The quickest trip was completed in 23:49 against a scheduled time of 32:59, while the highest travel time was 1 hour and 3 minutes, against a scheduled time of 56:18.

View attachment 700140
As a note, the sub-30 minute trips chiefly occur shortly before midnight.

And, for the same day, the information going eastbound:

View attachment 700144
View attachment 700145
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View attachment 700148

Now that there are actual numbers here to capture an average day in the operation of a 36 bus, do with this information what thou wilst.

As an aside, a sharp eyed commenter on Steve Munro's blog pointed out some weird aspects to the publicly shown LRT schedule:

View attachment 700149
Sounds to me like they'd be able to improve the quality of the trip quite significantly purely by employing someone who actually knows how to write a schedule.

honestly theres just too much ragebaiting over a schedule that doesnt reflect any realities yet. once theres a couple months of data we can then see what the actual travel times are. until then its all just guessing.

 

[Rainforest]

I am surprised that the bus 36 scheduled trip time is so much greater than the actual trip time. Maybe, the scheduled time includes several minutes for the terminal recovery?

 

[TRONto]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but $2.5 billion/10.3 km=$240 million/km was the estimated cost in 2023. As of March 31 2025, the estimated cost is now $3.585 billion.

Toronto Star: https://archive.ph/lILv8

Finch West Line 6 LRT

I just wonder why we put so little emphasis on speed, even for feeder lines such as this. Per Metrolinx, the line will have an end-to-end travel time of 38 minutes, or 17 kph. That's equivalent to pretty casual cycling speed.

urbantoronto.ca

When the contract was signed the the costs for building the finch LRT were just over 100 million per kilometer which was normal for North America at the time. You can see that construction costs are 1.2 billion for 11 km.

 

[nfitz]

Sure a late night bus that is only hitting a fraction of the stops is probably faster, but it doesn't represent the typical 36 rider.

I always feel that the Bloor-Danforth night bus is faster than the subway - because it stops less, especially east of Sherbourne.

 

[T3G]

I am surprised that the bus 36 scheduled trip time is so much greater than the actual trip time. Maybe, the scheduled time includes several minutes for the terminal recovery?

I doubt it, as the 36 doesn't terminate at Humber College there would be no need to have recovery time there.

I assume it's a combination of two factors: one being that much like the LRT schedule, the bus schedule features excessive padding at times that does not reflect the true reality on the ground, and that the drivers may be speed demons. For reasons entirely unknown, the safety crackdown on rail lines seems not to have spread to buses, and many drivers (not just at the TTC) drive like absolute maniacs. The other day I raced a GO bus down Derry Road in Mississauga that was going at least 20 km over the speed limit.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

I am surprised that the bus 36 scheduled trip time is so much greater than the actual trip time. Maybe, the scheduled time includes several minutes for the terminal recovery?

They tend to try to keep the 36 between Keele and HWY 27 to a headway rather than a schedule simply because of how much service demand there is there. If this was a service outside of the 10-minute network they would be more strict about schedule adherence. If you've ever been to Humberwood Loop you'll literally see a line-up of Artics throughout the day outside the loop along Humberwood Blvd because it's the one spot with enough layover space that can handle it. Finch West station in comparison doesn't really have that much layover space once you factor in how may routes terminate there, especially now that the bus route changes have kicked in.

 

[Rainforest]

I doubt it, as the 36 doesn't terminate at Humber College there would be no need to have recovery time there.

I assume it's a combination of two factors: one being that much like the LRT schedule, the bus schedule features excessive padding at times that does not reflect the true reality on the ground, and that the drivers may be speed demons. For reasons entirely unknown, the safety crackdown on rail lines seems not to have spread to buses, and many drivers (not just at the TTC) drive like absolute maniacs. The other day I raced a GO bus down Derry Road in Mississauga that was going at least 20 km over the speed limit.

They drive like maniacs, and yet accidents involving public transit buses are rare.

Can we get the right kind of maniacs trained for the LRT operations, too?

Otherwise, light rail will be artificially disadvantaged, and we might not see any new LRT lines built for a long time, because the public will see little benefit in building them.

Entirely due to the difference in operational mindset, rather than any hard technical reasons.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

I personally think everyone is drawing too many conclusions about the published schedule data right now. Even Michael Lindsay is saying that the published data is just a guideline of how service will be structured from the beginning of the soft-open period and may not reflect the reality of the service as operators get more comfortable with the vehicles over time. In all likelihood, the data likely reflects operators cautiously cruising along the line at open and will likely change over time to reflect increasing speeds to line speed limits.

 

[urbanclient]

Then you have the migrant labourers on top of that

Migrant labourers? Imagine the pearl clutching if us morally righteous Canadians sullied ourselves to exploit such an underclass. /s

 

[Jane2021]

A Finch LRT with an ad wrap promoting line 6