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Finch West Line 6 LRT

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christine said:
And TTC ops have been known to 100% adhere to a published schedule. As others have mentioned, it is possible that this a placeholder value.
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You are right, TTC ops do not adhere to the published schedule or service summary headways. Operations are nearly always slower, with longer travel times and headways.

It's not just a published reduced speed zone RSZ or security incident issue, it's the fact that the subway, especially Line 1, runs slower in general than pre-COVID, pre-ATO. Hence why I have previously referred to de facto permanent reduced speed zones. Case in point, the surface section between St. Clair and Eglinton only has ONE official RSZ "Southbound Eglinton to Davisville". But in reality, the whole surface section is slow both ways and trips in general are always longer than what Google Maps claims. The only hope of getting a trip that is on time is on Line 2, where the doors are manually closed quickly when arriving at empty stations.

If the TTC can't get a subway to run on-time consistently, what makes anyone think they'll run a mixed-grade LRT on time? Their track record with streetcars does not inspire confidence either. Streetcars and buses are considered "on-time" as long as they are not over 5 minutes late. Even then they managed an "on-time" rate of 61% and 74% respectively in September.

RSZs:

Reduced Speed Zones

www.ttc.ca www.ttc.ca
Subway delay data insights: TTC CEO's reports with on-time metrics: https://www.ttc.ca/transparency-and-accountability/CEOs-Report
 
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urbanclient said:
You are right, TTC ops do not adhere to the published schedule or service summary headways. Operations are nearly always slower, with longer travel times and headways.

It's not just a published reduced speed zone RSZ or security incident issue, it's the fact that the subway, especially Line 1, runs slower in general than pre-COVID, pre-ATO. Hence why I have previously referred to de facto permanent reduced speed zones. Case in point, the surface section between St. Clair and Eglinton only has ONE official RSZ "Southbound Eglinton to Davisville". But in reality, the whole surface section is slow both ways and trips in general are always longer than what Google Maps claims. The only hope of getting a trip that is on time is on Line 2, where the doors are manually closed quickly when arriving at empty stations.

If the TTC can't get a subway to run on-time consistently, what makes anyone think they'll run a mixed-grade LRT on time? Their track record with streetcars does not inspire confidence either. Streetcars and buses are considered "on-time" as long as they are not over 5 minutes late. Even then they managed an "on-time" rate of 61% and 74% respectively in September.

RSZs:

Reduced Speed Zones

www.ttc.ca www.ttc.ca
Subway delay data insights: TTC CEO's reports with on-time metrics: https://www.ttc.ca/transparency-and-accountability/CEOs-Report
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Yes, it feels that Line 1 is actually slower than Line 2 now even though Line 2 should theoretically have a lower average speed.

You can see the difference of how Line 2 trains barrel into the platforms, while Line 1 crawls in (especially in the busier stations).
 
yurt2022 said:
Yes, it feels that Line 1 is actually slower than Line 2 now even though Line 2 should theoretically have a lower average speed.
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Why would you assume that? Line 2 has always been faster than the 1, since before the pre-ATC days, because the 1 has lots of curves and timers, while the 2 is just one long straightaway.
 
Bojaxs said:
If people want "capacity", they'll choose their personal vehicles.
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Until everybody does and then the roads are gridlocked and there's no capacity at all.

Yeah, in light traffic a personal vehicle is faster, because it's not making all the stops! It's an unfair argument, because if a personal vehicle also made all the stops, then the only time if would be faster than an LRT in its own right of way is in the wee hours when there's no traffic, and it can easily exceed the speed limits.

Mass is the reason that mass transit exists. It's right in the name.
 
KevinT said:
Until everybody does and then the roads are gridlocked and there's no capacity at all.

Yeah, in light traffic a personal vehicle is faster, because it's not making all the stops! It's an unfair argument, because if a personal vehicle also made all the stops, then the only time if would be faster than an LRT in its own right of way is in the wee hours when there's no traffic, and it can easily exceed the speed limits.

Mass is the reason that mass transit exists. It's right in the name.
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All very true, but I would also add that even a slower LRT is unlikely to tip the scale in terms of people being pushed away, at least if those making the decision are remotely reasonable individuals. That's not to say that we shouldn't try to mine as much speed out of the infrastructure as is reasonably possible, but as someone whose commute takes an hour by GO train vs anywhere from 1 hr 20 min to 2 hours by the replacement bus, the idea of some people ditching the LRT because it's a few minutes slower than it otherwise could be is facile at best.
 
T3G said:
Why would you assume that? Line 2 has always been faster than the 1, since before the pre-ATC days, because the 1 has lots of curves and timers, while the 2 is just one long straightaway.
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Because comparing trip times along distances where both Lines are straight (e.g. Yonge vs. Bloor), Line 1 always has longer than advertised headways hence/and longer than predicted trip times (Google Maps/Transit App). Therefore, lower than advertised speeds as well.

According to service summaries, Line 1 is supposed to have a faster average speed than Line 2 for weekday midday and early evening, along with weekend afternoons. In reality, it is always slower. And I don't mean virtually always, I mean always. Not counting major delays like security incidents of course.

stevemunro.ca

TTC Scheduled Service Summaries

The TTC publishes its current service summaries on its Planning page, but it’s not unusual to want to look at the old versions for comparison and history. As a convenience to readers, here ar…
stevemunro.ca stevemunro.ca
 
Amare said:
Sorry, but there's absolutely no justification for this laughable excuse of slow institutionalized molasses garbage that's about to be implemented on Finch West (speaking solely on vehicle speed here) but the TTC. I suspect the recovery time will also be a laughable joke as well because of whatever idiotic reason as well.

If the TTC isnt interested in providing travel at speeds that are actually decent and competent, then outsource the operation to someone who will. This non-sense has gone on for far too long, and it's simply inexcusable to spend billions of dollars to not maximize this line's operation because the TTC is too scared to do it.

This doesn't excuse Toronto Transportation Services for their own idiocy, but enough is enough. It's time someone takes responsibility for this abject stupidity going on.
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If only we had gone through this whole sham decades ago, in which a "LRT" was constructed on a wide arterial with frequent bus service in mixed traffic, which turned into infamously infrequent and slow light rail service, before being quietly redesignated a streetcar.....

1764609266033.png


Toronto's (and Ontario's) public service, from the members of David Miller's admin to the "Transit Planners" employed by Metrolinx, are without a doubt some of the most incompetent in any city of our size, and deserve a through gutting by any politician actually wishing to see the city improve.
 
While I agree that the streetcar designation makes more sense than "Line 6" I also feel that the "Bus is faster" thing to be very overplayed.

The vast majority of Finch riders will experience much shorter travel times. Not to say they shouldn't have proper LRT priority and even level crossing gates (ala Calgary and Edmonton) and remove 3-4 stops. My point is not that there is nothing to critisize, it's that, even in this flawed state, we will see a substantial improvement over the bus service. My guess is that most of the people arguing otherwise haven't spent much time on the 36.

jmi22 said:
If only we had gone through this whole sham decades ago, in which a "LRT" was constructed on a wide arterial with frequent bus service in mixed traffic, which turned into infamously infrequent and slow light rail service, before being quietly redesignated a streetcar.....
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The silver lining on finch is that it will already be better than Spadina or St Clair, and will require less to upgrade. Both of those require much more in terms of stop removal and require switch upgrades. Line 6 has a larger stop spacing (although there are a few that should have been cut) and it doesn't have messy switch areas at every intersection where it has to grind to a halt.

In general, I think the residents and commuters along Finch will have a different reaction than the online community even if things should be better.
 
Ward8 said:
While I agree that the streetcar designation makes more sense than "Line 6" I also feel that the "Bus is faster" thing to be very overplayed.

The vast majority of Finch riders will experience much shorter travel times. Not to say they shouldn't have proper LRT priority and even level crossing gates (ala Calgary and Edmonton) and remove 3-4 stops. My point is not that there is nothing to critisize, it's that, even in this flawed state, we will see a substantial improvement over the bus service. My guess is that most of the people arguing otherwise haven't spent much time on the 36.
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Adding "RapidTO" style bus lanes on Finch would have achieved the same thing as the LRT, but at a cheaper cost. Plus it would have been built much quicker.
 
Bojaxs said:
Adding "RapidTO" style bus lanes on Finch would have achieved the same thing as the LRT, but at a cheaper cost. Plus it would have been built much quicker.
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At the currently scheduled speeds - yes. But if they can get the transit priority up, and remove TTC from the operations, then no.
 
jmi22 said:
If only we had gone through this whole sham decades ago, in which a "LRT" was constructed on a wide arterial with frequent bus service in mixed traffic, which turned into infamously infrequent and slow light rail service, before being quietly redesignated a streetcar.....


Toronto's (and Ontario's) public service, from the members of David Miller's admin to the "Transit Planners" employed by Metrolinx, are without a doubt some of the most incompetent in any city of our size, and deserve a through gutting by any politician actually wishing to see the city improve.
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They're incompetent because they decided to use an affordable technology that was well established globally? The opportunity to build a network for the price of a subway line (at the time)? The technology is good and corporate culture and operations can change. But nah, instead let's discredit the entire thing because the service and culture are immutable.
 
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