Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Bojaxs]

average speed is calculated by using the total distance of the line and the time it takes to get there. This includes the time decelerating, dwell times at stops and time accelerating. For context most bus routes have an average speed somewhere around 15-17 km/h the 29 Dufferin has an average speed during peak times of as low as 10.6 km/h. Line 6 once operating is likely going to be quite consistent with its average speed and is unlikely go much lower than that 20 km/h average

I guess I was expecting a quicker trip than 33-34 minutes. This project cost roughly 2.5 billion dollars. Couldn't we have achieved a 33-34 minute trip length at a much cheaper cost by construct a York region style BRT along Finch?

I'm looking at google maps right now (midnight) and it's telling me the 36B will go from Finch West to Humber College within 39 minutes. Roads being empty at midnight would be similar to dedicated bus lanes with fewer stops, no?

 

[canucks83]

38 mins for 10,3 KM isn’t rapid transit. I do feel they should work on improving travel time as top priority before expanding the line.

Below my source:

https://transittoronto.ca/archives/reports/Finch-West-LRT-FAQs-Revised-June9.pdf

33-34 a tad better than my numbers but still terribly slow for a brand new projet. Miss opportunity here. Hopefully Finch West will over deliver.

 

[DopeyFish]

33 minutes for 18 stops is roughly comparable to the subway speeds of line 1 and 2.

 

[T3G]

33 minutes for 18 stops is roughly comparable to the subway speeds of line 1 and 2.

33 minutes for 10,3 km is an average of 18 km/h. Line 1 runs at an average speed of 29 km/h, line 2 at an average speed of 30.

 

[smallspy]

I guess I was expecting a quicker trip than 33-34 minutes. This project cost roughly 2.5 billion dollars. Couldn't we have achieved a 33-34 minute trip length at a much cheaper cost by construct a York region style BRT along Finch?

It depends.

Do you want a line that replaces all of the buses AND makes all trips faster - thereby serving all of the residents and commuters in the corridor?

Or you do want a high-speed line that bypasses a lot of stops, will require more transfers and/or walking, and may not serve all of the residents and commuters in the corridor? Ridership may be higher, because you're able to draw more people onto transit. Or it may not be, because the number of new people drawn is outweighed by the number of people who who currently use the line but will have to figure out some other way to get to work/home/school.

Oh, and there's a budget that the whole thing needs to be fit into. So that needs to be taken into account.

Those are the two choices available, and the two methods are mutually exclusive.

Dan

 

[canucks83]

It depends.

Do you want a line that replaces all of the buses AND makes all trips faster - thereby serving all of the residents and commuters in the corridor?

Or you do want a high-speed line that bypasses a lot of stops, will require more transfers and/or walking, and may not serve all of the residents and commuters in the corridor? Ridership may be higher, because you're able to draw more people onto transit. Or it may not be, because the number of new people drawn is outweighed by the number of people who who currently use the line but will have to figure out some other way to get to work/home/school.

Oh, and there's a budget that the whole thing needs to be fit into. So that needs to be taken into account.

Those are the two choices available, and the two methods are mutually exclusive.

Dan

Then they should have kept buses. If we are investing in rapid transit it should be rapid or at least creating an express route otherwise it’s missing the mark. Particularly when you consider all transits can have delay (unavoidable). If the best scenario 33 mins + wait time, it’s bad and Toronto should find ways to increased the speed, at least over time.

 

[DKsan]

Then they should have kept buses. If we are investing in rapid transit it should be rapid or at least creating an express route otherwise it’s missing the mark. Particularly when you consider all transits can have delay (unavoidable). If the best scenario 33 mins + wait time, it’s bad and Toronto should find ways to increased the speed, at least over time.

The buses on Finch were unreliable because they were getting clogged in traffic, but also they were jammed full of people. The 36 runs EVERY TWO MINUTES at peak periods at Jane going EB, for example, and it was leaving people behind, in areas that are classified as some of the poorest in the city. The Finch West brings capacity and reliability, without having to remove all the stops that the community needs.

Speed is not always important; not waiting forever because your transit is stuck in traffic or is rammed with people is also really important, especially with many in this area not being "choice" riders, like those in more affluent areas of the city.

 

[T3G]

The capacity thing is a CRITICAL point that everyone who says that LRTs should have just been BRTs miss.

Go on ahead and try to couple a few Nova LFS Artics together. I'll wait.

 

[drum118]

The capacity thing is a CRITICAL point that everyone who says that LRTs should have just been BRTs miss.

Go on ahead and try to couple a few Nova LFS Artics together. I'll wait.

Better still, how about the triple articulates and see how fast riders want to move to an LRT. Rode the rear section want once and refused to do so on other trips.

Never saw any in 2022 compared to 2012.

 

[nfitz]

It depends.

Do you want a line that replaces all of the buses AND makes all trips faster - thereby serving all of the residents and commuters in the corridor?

Or you do want a high-speed line that bypasses a lot of stops, will require more transfers and/or walking, and may not serve all of the residents and commuters in the corridor?

This area will get the high speed option when (if?) Woodbine GO opens. Quick travel to downtown, Bloor-Dundas West + Line 2, Brampton + Line 10.

Presumably with a 2-stop extension of Line 6 to meet the GO and feed more local traffic on Line 6.

And if the section to Yonge is completed it will feed local traffic there.

 

[smallspy]

Then they should have kept buses. If we are investing in rapid transit it should be rapid or at least creating an express route otherwise it’s missing the mark. Particularly when you consider all transits can have delay (unavoidable). If the best scenario 33 mins + wait time, it’s bad and Toronto should find ways to increased the speed, at least over time.

This is a poor take.

Just because it doesn't meet whatever fantastical definition of "rapid transit" that you have arbitrarily come up with, other people - who will actually use the service, let's remember - must suffer?

Dan

 

[Rainforest]

This is a poor take.

Just because it doesn't meet whatever fantastical definition of "rapid transit" that you have arbitrarily come up with, other people - who will actually use the service, let's remember - must suffer?

Dan

I believe it was a mistake to market Finch LRT as "rapid" transit, when its speed is only marginally better than the bus it replaces. That label creates unrealistic expectations, followed by disappointment. Disappointing the riders who will actually use the service, not just the blog posters.

Labeling Finch LRT as a "local line with sufficiently improved service" would be much more accurate.

The planned stop spacing on Finch is fine, we don't want to remove any stops. The role of this route is mainly local, it will mostly carry riders who live near Finch, and not all of them live at the major intersections. Relatively few riders will, say, take a Kipling bus to Finch and then Finch LRT to the subway.

Thus, there is no way to boost the speed dramatically. Still, 20-21 kph is on the low end of the expectations, and leaves room for some improvements. TTC should look at a) how the LRT traffic priority works, how it can be tweaked to work better, and b) are there any slow orders that needlessly delay the trains.

 

[nfitz]

Marginally? At peak?

Go back to the foundational Transit City documents.

This was never about high speed RT.

Even the Bloor-Danforth night bus is faster than the subway!

 

[Bojaxs]

I believe it was a mistake to market Finch LRT as "rapid" transit, when its speed is only marginally better than the bus it replaces. That label creates unrealistic expectations, followed by disappointment. Disappointing the riders who will actually use the service, not just the blog posters.

Labeling Finch LRT as a "local line with sufficiently improved service" would be much more accurate.

They're numbering these LRT lines as if they're subways. Line 5 & 6. So a lot of riders are going to have high expectations for these lines to move as fast as subways.

This was never about high speed RT.

Well obviously. That's why so many people wanted subways over David Miller's Transit City proposal.

 

[nfitz]

Well obviously. That's why so many people wanted subways over David Miller's Transit City proposal.

some transit nerds perhaps. I don't think it's on the average voters radar.

Still, with the original plan all 8 lines would have opened long since. Though Don Mills was probably always going to have to be a higher order from Eglinton to Pape, which might have delayed it until 2025 or so.

Transit delayed is transit denied