Finch West Line 6 LRT

[ARG1]

The Ottawa airport train is slower than a bicycle. And it has conflicts with train traffic at the diamond.

The last part isn't true. There is a diamond, however it doesn't see any regular train service, and mostly just exists to serve Walkley Yard. The one diamond that actually has regular rail service (VIA) was grade separated during the Line 2 closure

 

[smallspy]

They can turn, they just can't do it very well. Look at all the issues Ottawa is having with the Citadis. Years after opening the Confederation Line, and they still have to slow the trains down when turning. Look at how slow the Citadis moves on Line 6 when entering and exiting Humber College.

Why are both OC transpo and the TTC operating the Citadis at such slow speeds when they hit a turn? Does OC Transpo have the same obsession with safety as the TTC does?

In Ottawa, if you read the reports, the issues are not that the trucks can't turn well enough. It's the loading on the bearings because the trucks are poorly designed and don't constrain the bearings properly.

In any case, you said that they're fixed to the body - they're not. They can and do rotate.

Dan

 

[dowlingm]

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2021/ie/bgrd/backgroundfile-168557.pdf (June 18, 2021)

Contractual obligations for the operation of Finch West LRT, including end to end run time, require the LRT to be able to reach speeds of up to 60 km/h. Given the segregated nature of the LRT driven by professional drivers on fixed rails with superior stopping ability over regular vehicles with pneumatic tires, it has been determined that an operating speed of 60 km/h for the LRT vehicles is appropriate in the segregated environment and is still in keeping with a Vision Zero oriented approach to road safety.

The City was told if it didn't permit elevated speeds compared to the adjacent street, it would cause a breach of contract. It was told that this was in keeping with Vision Zero.

Five years later trams are creeping along the line and through intersections, because "Vision Zero" but also because "meanie Mosaic says contract".

Meanwhile elements within the TTC and Transportation must have been aware of this during the ramp up to service, and before that when the operations contract was signed with Metrolinx, but now the city and the TTC board are giving it the "this is brand new information!" .

Something's not computing somewhere, folks. The Mayor's office should be contemplating some changes amongst the membership of the TTC board and the leadership of Transportation in so far as they contributed to a massive PR disaster for this project.

One other thing: according to Mosaic's 2024 lawsuit against Metrolinx, the TTC's deal with Metrolinx did not oblige the Commission to "facilitate effective implementation of maintenance and operational requirements once the line commences service". But TTC is now bending over backwards to hobble service to its customers in order to ensure Mosaic make their margin on the maintenance work by minimizing wear and tear. One wonders what changed.

Toronto LRT woes: Finch West lawsuit underway, Eglinton Crosstown won’t open before 2025

Mosaic Transit Group filed a lawsuit against the Ontario government over talks involving the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) and Metrolinx.

toronto.citynews.ca

 

[afransen]

IF @lrt's friend is correct, then the City of Ottawa, alongside Alstom, already tried to "fix the bad part", but determined it would be too expensive to pursue.

Remember, these are low floor LRVs. The wheels are fixed into the chassis/ body of the tram. Hence why they can't handle turns all that well.

High floor LRVs have more traditional bogies and wheels, which allow them to handle turns better, and at higher speeds. Plus less stress on the wheels.

Low floor LRVs are also more expensive to maintain because you essentially have to lift the entire chassis of the train up in order to work on the wheels and bogies. High floor LRVs are much easier to work on.

Look at Edmonton and Calgary's LRT systems. They have high floor LRVs still running from the 1980's. Will we get 10-15 years out of these low floor LRVs?

I'm sure someone on this forum who is more knowledgeable on rolling stock could explain all of this better than myself.

Kind of raises the question of why we didn't/couldn't use high floor LRVs for lines like Line 6, 5, or 10 for that matter. Your surface stops have to be more elevated, with longer wheelchair ramps. I think you could live with that for the savings on vehicles and maintenance. The higher reliability, and better interior circulation are strong points in favour of high floor. Line 5 especially since so much of it is tunneled and capacity is more of a concern.

 

[Steve X]

Kind of raises the question of why we didn't/couldn't use high floor LRVs for lines like Line 6, 5, or 10 for that matter. Your surface stops have to be more elevated, with longer wheelchair ramps. I think you could live with that for the savings on vehicles and maintenance. The higher reliability, and better interior circulation are strong points in favour of high floor. Line 5 especially since so much of it is tunneled and capacity is more of a concern.

It's mainly the city's wish to have a smaller footprint. The platforms are much bulkier and unaesthetic when you use high floor vehicles. However low floor vehicles are harder and more expensive to maintain. Ottawa was an idiot to go with low floor with a complete grade separated line. Not to mention that the rider quality is much rougher.

 

[Bordercollie]

It's mainly the city's wish to have a smaller footprint. The platforms are much bulkier and unaesthetic when you use high floor vehicles. However low floor vehicles are harder and more expensive to maintain. Ottawa was an idiot to go with low floor with a complete grade separated line. Not to mention that the rider quality is much rougher.

The track is pretty smooth so I think the ride quality in Ottawa is pretty good.

 

[lrt's friend]

The track is pretty smooth so I think the ride quality in Ottawa is pretty good.

There is a big difference in ride quality between Line 1 and 2 in Ottawa. The Flirt trains on Line 2 are very smooth, but ......... , they are so slow, because they are constantly negotiating passing tracks that are not ideally located. Operations are very slow on the original part of Line 2, having gone from 13 minutes to 19 minutes from Greenboro to Bayview. Buses are much faster on the parallel sections of Transitway. Line 1 trains are much rougher on curves. You can feel and hear the grinding. Having rode on REM in Montreal, there is a big difference on similar curves. REM trains take curves faster and more smoothly. We are expecting at least yearly shutdowns for track maintenance, that will last for several days, usually in July. Rail grinding or whatever. Not very satisfactory. Ottawa has got into the habit of having protracted summer shutdowns. This started with Line 2, when Carleton University is mostly closed in the summer, and now they are following the same process with Line 1. There is no efficient way to run buses in place of rail since the Transitway was closed down.

 

[drum118]

Dec 7
More up on my site

Finally getting caught up with my backlog and just upload shots from Dec 7

6509 departing Finch

Small crowd on the Finch bound car after leaving Humber, but pack full arriving at Finch.

This is the only one on the line as well the fare collector that needs to disappear ASP at Humber

6512 pulling out the FMOSF and would be come the VIP leaving Finch at 7:25am and become the first westbound car to Humber

6;30am line was almost to the end of the block and was going down that street at 7;00am

At 8:40am, platform clear and when I caught the next car.

 

[Bojaxs]

There is a big difference in ride quality between Line 1 and 2 in Ottawa. The Flirt trains on Line 2 are very smooth, but ......... , they are so slow, because they are constantly negotiating passing tracks that are not ideally located. Operations are very slow on the original part of Line 2, having gone from 13 minutes to 19 minutes from Greenboro to Bayview. Buses are much faster on the parallel sections of Transitway. Line 1 trains are much rougher on curves. You can feel and hear the grinding. Having rode on REM in Montreal, there is a big difference on similar curves. REM trains take curves faster and more smoothly. We are expecting at least yearly shutdowns for track maintenance, that will last for several days, usually in July. Rail grinding or whatever. Not very satisfactory. Ottawa has got into the habit of having protracted summer shutdowns. This started with Line 2, when Carleton University is mostly closed in the summer, and now they are following the same process with Line 1. There is no efficient way to run buses in place of rail since the Transitway was closed down.

Imagine how great Line 1 in Ottawa would be if it was designed to use the same rolling stock as the Montreal REM.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

There is a big difference in ride quality between Line 1 and 2 in Ottawa. The Flirt trains on Line 2 are very smooth, but ......... , they are so slow, because they are constantly negotiating passing tracks that are not ideally located. Operations are very slow on the original part of Line 2, having gone from 13 minutes to 19 minutes from Greenboro to Bayview. Buses are much faster on the parallel sections of Transitway. Line 1 trains are much rougher on curves. You can feel and hear the grinding. Having rode on REM in Montreal, there is a big difference on similar curves. REM trains take curves faster and more smoothly. We are expecting at least yearly shutdowns for track maintenance, that will last for several days, usually in July. Rail grinding or whatever. Not very satisfactory. Ottawa has got into the habit of having protracted summer shutdowns. This started with Line 2, when Carleton University is mostly closed in the summer, and now they are following the same process with Line 1. There is no efficient way to run buses in place of rail since the Transitway was closed down.

The trillium line could definitely be faster, but compared to Finch it's Lightning McQueen.

But even with the slow zones and curves, the confederation line runs the Citadis far faster then Finch. Even the horrible curves at Hurdman are taken at around 35-40 km/h. It doesn't explain why the TTC is running them that incredibly slow. Finch is a far straighter route, and the Citadis can definitely accelerate quickly, it gets up to 80 in the open sections of the Confederation line pretty fast

 

[Jaye101]

What’s interesting about the Finch West LRT is that the 512 St Clair streetcar actually has the same exact average speed. Which is curious to say the least considering the nature of the corridors differ greatly.

 

[hw621]

What’s interesting about the Finch West LRT is that the 512 St Clair streetcar actually has the same exact average speed. Which is curious to say the least considering the nature of the corridors differ greatly.

Only thing in common is the TTC is operating them...