Finch West Line 6 LRT

[ownthesky]

I see not much has change from my Dec 10 visit to the corridor as well doing a video shoot of it. I found signs in the bike lane in various place where you need to dismount to cross intersection which was weird. As for work at the 400, been on going for months with eastbound traffic been affected and was effecting the westbound also. On Dec 10, it was only the eastbound being affected that took me a few minutes to go that one block compared to the 20 minutes in Nov.

Tracks were very rusty on that day even with 2 LRV's out on the line sitting at stations. It been stated elsewhere TTC trainers are been train to be follow by 3 class of driver training which raise the questions does TTC have the manpower to fulfill not only Finch, but also Eglinton since they are out of the same division??

Still sitting at the west end station until I lost it out of the rear view.

Red both ends at an eastbound stop

It was also the first time I caught shots of the LRV's on Finch
.

They’re really beautiful trams! It’s so bittersweet to be sitting on these world class trains and doing essentially nothing with them.

 

[jmi22]

In a similar experience to @yoshirocks702 I encountered numerous people parked on the cycle tracks while travelling along Finch from the 427 to Jane.

The rolled curbs of the cycle tracks along the entirety of the LRT routing is honestly malpractice in 'safe street' design and I cannot figure out why they've done it like this. Vehicles parking or even carelessly swerving into the cycle tracks can do so without concern for even a scratch on their vehicle.

Apologies for the less than ideal photo, but even in the suburban realm of Vaughan on Highway 7, they figured out the rocket science required to build a cycle track with a hard curb.

​

 

[yoshirocks702]

I emailed Transportation Services thanks to @Northern Light and heard back really quickly, basically they said the rolled curb design is for emergency vehicles to pass through as finch isn't as wide as Hwy 7 which makes sense.

I suggested they add some flexible bollards and more signage similar to Richmond and Adelaide to help, but this project is still with Metrolinx so until they hand it back to the city not much can be done at this point which also makes sense. There is clear "no stopping" signs posted now but that doesn't seem to be effective at all.

 

[jmi22]

Honestly I don't buy it. The width of the cycle tracks is nowhere near what's needed for active vehicular travel and the cycle tracks rise at intersections so any particularly wide vehicle (say an ambulance) would have half its wheels hanging off the edge of the curb. We have precedent for actual emergency vehicular bypass bike lanes on University, and these are clearly not that.

Never mind the fact there actually is a newly built reserved vehicular right of way built with cut curbs at points to allow emergency access, the FINCH LRT lol.

 

[drum118]

I happen to noticed that there is a car sitting not only in the bike lane, but also on the sidewalk in my last photo I posted on Tuesday. Never noticed it until I looked at it last night in a posting.

It maybe possible once service starts and cycles start using the lanes, cars will stop parking there, but wishful hopes since those drivers don't care what they are doing is illega in the first place.

 

[jmi22]

I happen to noticed that there is a car sitting not only in the bike lane, but also on the sidewalk in my last photo I posted on Tuesday. Never noticed it until I looked at it last night in a posting.

It maybe possible once service starts and cycles start using the lanes, cars will stop parking there, but wishful hopes since those drivers don't care what they are doing is illega in the first place.

Failure in design before we even hit day 1 of operations. This is why claims of us having created a European street is eye role inducing when Toronto's Transportation Services and Toronto Cycling and Pedestrian Projects continuously fail to achieve even the most basic baselines of pedestrian/cycling safety.
Forget about a quality public realm, as the sea of pavement devoid of tree plantings/green boulevard among most of the completed corridor actually looks worse then the former wide grass boulevards.

 

[Amare]

Only in Toronto are things needlessly reinvented 100 times over when easier/cheaper solutions already exist.

So because Toronto Transportation services has an aversion to EMS vehicles using rapid transit ROWs, along with the TTC now being happy with placing OCS poles in the centre of ROWs, EMS vehicles dont use ROWs. So then now we go to rolled curbs as a bike lane solution because of Toronto Transportation Services' stupidity?

How many damn bike lane forms do we have to have in this city? We've got: bike lanes with no flexiposts, bike lanes with flexiposts, bike lanes with concrete barriers, raised bike lanes, rolled curb bike lines. For heavens sake just settle on a standard and go with it, enough with this jumbled mess.

This is exactly why we have these kind of messed up situations with people parking in bike lanes when they're not supposed to.

 

[drum118]

Only in Toronto are things needlessly reinvented 100 times over when easier/cheaper solutions already exist.

So because Toronto Transportation services has an aversion to EMS vehicles using rapid transit ROWs, along with the TTC now being happy with placing OCS poles in the centre of ROWs, EMS vehicles dont use ROWs. So then now we go to rolled curbs as a bike lane solution because of Toronto Transportation Services' stupidity?

How many damn bike lane forms do we have to have in this city? We've got: bike lanes with no flexiposts, bike lanes with flexiposts, bike lanes with concrete barriers, raised bike lanes, rolled curb bike lines. For heavens sake just settle on a standard and go with it, enough with this jumbled mess.

This is exactly why we have these kind of messed up situations with people parking in bike lanes when they're not supposed to.

Its real sad to see how poor our cycles lanes are compare to Europe where it is the fact of way of doing it with Ford trying to rip them out regardless how bad design they are. There is no standards how bike lanes should be built and only lave to look at the 2 designs on Davenport, Richmond, Bloor and Avenue Rd to name a few to see it.

 

[Northern Light]

Failure in design before we even hit day 1 of operations. This is why claims of us having created a European street is eye role inducing when Toronto's Transportation Services and Toronto Cycling and Pedestrian Projects continuously fail to achieve even the most basic baselines of pedestrian/cycling safety.

I think you're being far too hard on the Cycling/Pedestrian Unit when you look at current designs.

You have to realize, the Finch design dates from the 20-teens.

Its not what would be done today.

But the nature of the P3 process is that a given design was tendered, and changing it mid-stream would be expensive and exacerbate pre-existing delays.

The Cycling Unit will be the first to tell you that many previous design efforts left something to be desired; but if a a design from 2016 or 2018 etc. has been handed off to a different agency/dept or contractor...its out the door.

 

[ownthesky]

Its real sad to see how poor our cycles lanes are compare to Europe where it is the fact of way of doing it with Ford trying to rip them out regardless how bad design they are. There is no standards how bike lanes should be built and only lave to look at the 2 designs on Davenport, Richmond, Bloor and Avenue Rd to name a few to see it.

I suppose the one bright side is that unlike a subway line or an LRT, we need to rip-up and repave roads fairly frequently, so at least our cycle infrastructure is given the opportunity for a do-over on a regular cycle.

 

[Northern Light]

Only in Toronto are things needlessly reinvented 100 times over when easier/cheaper solutions already exist.

Definitely not true, this is a problem in many places.

So because Toronto Transportation services has an aversion to EMS vehicles using rapid transit ROWs,

Who told you this? First I've heard of it. My understanding is that its EMS choice not use the ROWs in most cases, as they are nervous about the tight dimensions and issues associated w/their own vehicle sway, as well as any oncoming Flexity. They also have concerns about snowbanks.

The Report from Toronto Fire from 2012 (on St. Clair ROW) is here:

https://transto.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/row-firereport.pdf

along with the TTC now being happy with placing OCS poles in the centre of ROWs, EMS vehicles dont use ROWs. So then now we go to rolled curbs as a bike lane solution because of Toronto Transportation Services' stupidity?

We could certainly debate the TTC's design choice, but that is on them either way, not Transportation Services.

The design on Finch would not happen today, its from an earlier era.

How many damn bike lane forms do we have to have in this city? We've got: bike lanes with no flexiposts, bike lanes with flexiposts, bike lanes with concrete barriers, raised bike lanes, rolled curb bike lines. For heavens sake just settle on a standard and go with it, enough with this jumbled mess.

There are fairly unified standards in new design, when there is road reconstruction.

The preference is a raised cycle track with physical buffer, that is below the height of the curb. (properly separating it from pedestrians)

Differences in design reflect:

a) The time at which a bike lane was implemented. (designs have evolved)

b) Whether the change is permanent or temporary ( generally flexipost and concrete barriers are interim or quick-build solutions that will be removed when the road is reconstructed. However, road reconstructions are every ~60 years. We would be waiting forever for cycling infrastructure if we insisted on the permanent version.

c) Road and Boulevard width. There isn't always enough room to deliver the ideal design. At that point you have to choose not to build a cycling facility at all, or do something a bit novel to make it work.

This is exactly why we have these kind of messed up situations with people parking in bike lanes when they're not supposed to.

That is better attributed to alot of other things, in this case, the fact that the project currently is not under City management, but Metrolinx management.

From the City's perspective, the bike lane doesn't yet exist, so you can't enforce 'blocking the bike lane' laws if there is no legal bike lane. That changes on the project handover date.

 

[drum118]

I think you're being far too hard on the Cycling/Pedestrian Unit when you look at current designs.

You have to realize, the Finch design dates from the 20-teens.

Its not what would be done today.

But the nature of the P3 process is that a given design was tendered, and changing it mid-stream would be expensive and exacerbate pre-existing delays.

The Cycling Unit will be the first to tell you that many previous design efforts left something to be desired; but if a a design from 2016 or 2018 etc. has been handed off to a different agency/dept or contractor...its out the door.

Changing a contract in mid-stream can happen at times with some delaying the project, but mostly keeping things on track. Depending when a change order would have been issue to change the cycling lane, some curb work would have to be ripped out and replace at an extra cost that was included in the change order considering how long it took to get those curbs and road built.

As for doing it down the road, you are looking around 20 years or so before the road is repave and it will be done in phases starting with the worse section. By right, there should be no need to do the bike lanes at the same time, as they will not have the same type of traffic on it in the first place. If the lanes are redone at the same time as the road, cycles will have to use the road well work is being done on it. Boils down to money.

 

[Northern Light]

Changing a contract in mid-stream can happen at times with some delaying the project, but mostly keeping things on track. Depending when a change order would have been issue to change the cycling lane, some curb work would have to be ripped out and replace at an extra cost that was included in the change order considering how long it took to get those curbs and road built.

As for doing it down the road, you are looking around 20 years or so before the road is repave and it will be done in phases starting with the worse section. By right, there should be no need to do the bike lanes at the same time, as they will not have the same type of traffic on it in the first place. If the lanes are redone at the same time as the road, cycles will have to use the road well work is being done on it. Boils down to money.

To a great degree, yes.

But also to control.

The project belongs to Metrolinx, not the City. If Metrolinx doesn't want to make a change, then its not happening.

 

[jmi22]

I think you're being far too hard on the Cycling/Pedestrian Unit when you look at current designs.

You have to realize, the Finch design dates from the 20-teens.

Its not what would be done today.

But the nature of the P3 process is that a given design was tendered, and changing it mid-stream would be expensive and exacerbate pre-existing delays.

The Cycling Unit will be the first to tell you that many previous design efforts left something to be desired; but if a a design from 2016 or 2018 etc. has been handed off to a different agency/dept or contractor...its out the door.

Definitely sympathetic to the internal processes that make this difficult, but the curb protected cycle tracks in Vaughan I posted were constructed in 2018-ish. We can assume the design was then put together at earliest in 2016, and likely earlier. The fact the cycle tracks we see today on Finch were ever the planned design is a condemnation of Cycling/Pedestrian unit.

 

[Northern Light]

Definitely sympathetic to the internal processes that make this difficult, but the curb protected cycle tracks in Vaughan I posted were constructed in 2018-ish. We can assume the design was then put together at earliest in 2016, and likely earlier. The fact the cycle tracks we see today on Finch were ever the planned design is a condemnation of Cycling/Pedestrian unit.

I won't defend earlier generations of design.

But I would caution against assuming the Pedestrian/Cycling unit actually did the design for this project.

There are other possibilities. I'd have to confirm who did it, though I'm not sure there's much to be gained by that.

In Toronto, they do not handle all cycling projects. The Major Capital Projects team handles a bunch.

In a TTC project and/or an Mx project, any number of people internal or external to Transportation could have had their hands on it.

At any rate, the design is wanting, we can all agree on that. The next time some version of light rail comes along in Toronto, you won't see the cycling facility done that way.