Finch West Line 6 LRT

[smallspy]

I always thought that the Sheppard Line should have been operated as a branch line of Line 1.

Every other train north on Line 1 goes to Finch or Don Mills.

TTC seem to have branch line phobia, lots of other transit systems operate them.

And how would you deal with the inevitable platform overcrowding situations that would occur at Finch in the morning? Or at Wilson in the afternoons?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[robmausser]

And how would you deal with the inevitable platform overcrowding situations that would occur at Finch in the morning? Or at Wilson in the afternoons?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

With ATC subway frequencies will be increased to combat overcrowding at Bloor/Yonge, which is multiples worse than Finch or Wilson.

There will definitely be shotturned trains galore. The ATC frequencies will be overkill for Finch and Wilson.

Why not have these trains spur onto Sheppard instead?

 

[smallspy]

With ATC subway frequencies will be increased to combat overcrowding at Bloor/Yonge, which is multiples worse than Finch or Wilson.

There will definitely be shotturned trains galore. The ATC frequencies will be overkill for Finch and Wilson.

Why not have these trains spur onto Sheppard instead?

So you're going to have 1 minute frequencies between York Mills station and where, exactly? Keep in mind, there is no single location on the system where you can turn trains fast enough to deal with that kind of headway. Hell, you're suggesting that they run 2 minute headways to Don Mills - the crossover there is physically incapable of turning trains that quickly, to think nothing of the fact that the Sheppard line isn't scheduled to get ATC/ATO in any of our lifetimes.

Also, where are you going to buy these trains? Where are you going to store them? Maintain them? Staff them?

There are most certainly places where it makes sense to run branches. The Yonge Line, in its current state, is not one of them.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[micheal_can]

Then you miss Sheppard - Yonge station entirely.....

 

[robmausser]

So you're going to have 1 minute frequencies between York Mills station and where, exactly? Keep in mind, there is no single location on the system where you can turn trains fast enough to deal with that kind of headway. Hell, you're suggesting that they run 2 minute headways to Don Mills - the crossover there is physically incapable of turning trains that quickly, to think nothing of the fact that the Sheppard line isn't scheduled to get ATC/ATO in any of our lifetimes.

Also, where are you going to buy these trains? Where are you going to store them? Maintain them? Staff them?

There are most certainly places where it makes sense to run branches. The Yonge Line, in its current state, is not one of them.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Your math sucks and you misunderstand me.

I said that you WOULDN'T have shortturns with a Sheppard Spur.

You don't need to run every other train on Sheppard for a 2 minute frequency. You have one out of every 4 trains spur onto Sheppard for a 4 minute frequency.

That way you still get 75% service to Finch and 4 minute headways on Sheppard.

The TTC is already buying more trains for ATC for 1 minute headways, so why don't you ask them.

There are places where subway trains already short turn, at St.Clair for example.

Wow, incorrect on every point, good job

 

[smallspy]

Your math sucks and you misunderstand me.

I'll concede that I may be misunderstanding your points. They are hardly fully thought out, however.

I said that you WOULDN'T have shortturns with a Sheppard Spur.

So where do you turn them back? Keep in mind that there is no longer a tail track at Eglinton, so that only gives you Davisville Yard - with all of its attendant difficulties - the Lawrence crossover and York Mills spare track to turn back trains.

You don't need to run every other train on Sheppard for a 2 minute frequency. You have one out of every 4 trains spur onto Sheppard for a 4 minute frequency.

Okay then. And who's paying for extending the subway platforms and resignalling the line?

That way you still get 75% service to Finch and 4 minute headways on Sheppard.

Sure. And you also have no eastbound service to Sheppard.

The TTC is already buying more trains for ATC for 1 minute headways, so why don't you ask them.

No, they are not. In fact, it's not even close. The best that they can hope for is 2 minute and 10 second service in the mornings with the current service pattern and the current fleet, and every 2 minutes and 29 seconds in the afternoons.

To run the headways that you are suggesting would require a fleet more than twice the size of the current 76 trains. Which would also require another yard the size of Wilson somewhere else on the line.

There are places where subway trains already short turn, at St.Clair for example.

Well no, they don't regularly short turn at St. Clair. But you're right in that there is a scheduled short turn in the morning rush hours - between Glencairn and Lawrence West. Which is why the morning rush hour headways are more frequent with fewer trains.

Wow, incorrect on every point, good job

If only I had your enthusiasm and naivete.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Streety McCarface]

To run the headways that you are suggesting would require a fleet more than twice the size of the current 76 trains. Which would also require another yard the size of Wilson somewhere else on the line.

Can we make HWY 407 station useful and build a train yard around there? I mean, it wouldn't be extremely practical service wise, but there's plenty of room there. Besides, with all the politically motivated subway extensions (Sheppard East, Yonge North, SSE, Bloor West, DRL North beyond Sheppard), more room for yards will become available eventually.

 

[Amare]

Can we make HWY 407 station useful and build a train yard around there? I mean, it wouldn't be extremely practical service wise, but there's plenty of room there. Besides, with all the politically motivated subway extensions (Sheppard East, Yonge North, SSE, Bloor West, DRL North beyond Sheppard), more room for yards will become available eventually.

Why build a subway yard right next door to Wilson Yard? That would be essentially putting more money into the firepit (known as Highway 407 Station).

 

[Streety McCarface]

Why build a subway yard right next door to Wilson Yard? That would be essentially putting more money into the firepit (known as Highway 407 Station).

Does it really matter where you store trains so long as it's located along the subway line they're being used? Since peak capacity of the subway won't be used except during peak times, both yards could probably send out trains at a fair rate until peak hours. Of course, Davisville would be a better location, but if you need train storage space, that's a location that can be used.

 

[JSF-1]

It really does matter where you put a subway Yard. You want to place them where you can maximize the efficiency of getting trains to and from the yard in the least amount of time as possible while also not bottle necking the system at the same time. Ideally another yard on Line 1 would be built on the Yonge side of the line, since deadheading trains from the university side to Finch would be absurd and there's a reason the TTC doesn't do that (or atleast they shouldn't be). Obviously this would become a moot point if the Sheppard Line was extended west since than we would only need to send Finch bound trains across it instead of around Line 1. Line 2 probably has the best arrangement since it has a yard at both ends of the line (Greenwood and Keele). The more time a train spends deadheading to its destination the more money it looses. The Crosstown for example is going to be the worst in this case of deadheading since it will only have 1 yard and it is at the end of the line. So will see trains deadheading from Mount Dennis all the way to Kennedy.

 

[Steve X]

Yes, there will be an increase of deadheading cost, unnecessary wear and tear and reduced overnight maintenance window length leading to more weekend shutdowns for badly located yard locations. Trains don't magically teleport to the desired location of the line.

 

[smallspy]

It really does matter where you put a subway Yard. You want to place them where you can maximize the efficiency of getting trains to and from the yard in the least amount of time as possible while also not bottle necking the system at the same time. Ideally another yard on Line 1 would be built on the Yonge side of the line, since deadheading trains from the university side to Finch would be absurd and there's a reason the TTC doesn't do that (or atleast they shouldn't be).

Precisely.

This is part of the reason why there is a push on inside the TTC to extend the Yonge Line up to Highway 7 - it would come bundled with a new storage facility to allow them to store 14 or 15 trains overnight.

It wouldn't be Wilson-sized, but it would definitely help immensely.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Precisely.

This is part of the reason why there is a push on inside the TTC to extend the Yonge Line up to Highway 7 - it would come bundled with a new storage facility to allow them to store 14 or 15 trains overnight.

It wouldn't be Wilson-sized, but it would definitely help immensely.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

But wouldn't that only be enough trains for the Yonge extension itself?

 

[Leo_Chan]

But wouldn't that only be enough trains for the Yonge extension itself?

Just because trains need to added because the line is lengthened and a new yard is built for that doesn't mean it doesn't impact the entire line as a whole.

 

[smallspy]

But wouldn't that only be enough trains for the Yonge extension itself?

To run the same headways as they do today all the way to Highway 7, they'd need about 11 more trains in the morning rush.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.