guavadelic
Active Member
Some EU countries and major manufacturers are pushing to combine the two programs. Might be an easier decision for Canada to make soon.
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F-35 Fighter Jet Purchase
- Thread starter BMO
- Start date
Admiral Beez
Superstar
kEiThZ
Superstar
Cheaper. And yet more capable than a Gripen, which is basically a souped up fast jet trainer from the 2000s.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Gripen’s off the table for Canada. Let’s get the eighty-odd F-35s asap, with possible fleet expansions with the F-36 into the 2040s. But I’d also like Canada to look beyond the US for its defence needs when options can meet our needs. It’s remarkable how Lockheed-Martin and Boeing are embedded in our forces, including the new “destroyers”.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Which is exactly what the air staff told cabinet months ago when they suggested we join the British-Japanese GCAP or Franco-German FCAS.
Can't help it if politicians don't listen and go chasing short term solutions.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I wonder how it would have gone if we'd stayed in the Panavia Tornado program. I expect we'd now be flying Eurofighters.
In July 1968, Canada along with Great Britain, Germany, Italy, Belgium, and the Netherlands signed the initial Memorandum of Understanding for the Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) project. This would become the Panavia Tornado, with first flight in 1974 and introduction into service of the IDS (interdiction, strike variant) 1979 and ADV (air defence variant) in 1985. Canada exited the MRCA program in October 1968, just a few months later. To be fair, the Tornado's lack of multirole capability, with dedicated interceptor and attack variants would have been a hinderance over the fighter/attack Hornet. But the Tornado would have looked cool in Canadian colours!
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Once South Korea starts pumping out KF-21s I'd say the second-tier air force market for the Gripen will be in trouble. Just as Hyundai and its K2 Panther is beginning to chip away at the market for Leopard 2s, with Hyundai now establishing a K2 tank production hub in Poland to serve the European market. If Canada choses the KSS-III submarine over the German 212CD the Korean industrial military complex will really be on a roll. If I was SAAB I'd be worried that the Gripen market is going to evaporate - which would in part be their own fault for operating at such as slow production rate.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Saab will always have the European market. They'll have markets like Portugal.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
True, but their slow annual output of 24-30 Gripen aircraft will cost them sales on the global market. KAI is expected to exceed this rate with the KF-21 by the end of 2026. And it looks like a 2030's aircraft.
Whereas to me, the Gripen looks like it's from the 1990s, which having first flown 38 years ago, it is.
guavadelic
Active Member
Sweden is putting the full court press on courting Canada...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/swedish-king-canada-visit-9.6971674
Admiral Beez
Superstar
When will Carney close the door on the Swedes once and for all. Harper’s government chose the F-35 without commitment, Trudeau’s government chose the F-35 with limited contractual commitment, will Carney’s government finally put this to bed?
Coolibop
Active Member
An interesting take on our military investments on the Paikin Podcast this week:
At about the 38:40 mark, Erin O'Toole appeared suggested revisiting the original Stephen Harper-era plan to purchase approximately 65 of the ~88 F-35s. Given the significant increase in per-unit costs, he proposed reallocating the difference (of the full 88) to invest in collaborative "loyal wingmen"—autonomous support aircraft designed to operate alongside manned fighters.
Foe those interested, earlier in the episode, there was a related discussion about Canada's submarine procurement strategy, with emphasis on domestically developed autonomous capabilities in lieu of large sub purchase.
At about the 38:40 mark, Erin O'Toole appeared suggested revisiting the original Stephen Harper-era plan to purchase approximately 65 of the ~88 F-35s. Given the significant increase in per-unit costs, he proposed reallocating the difference (of the full 88) to invest in collaborative "loyal wingmen"—autonomous support aircraft designed to operate alongside manned fighters.
Foe those interested, earlier in the episode, there was a related discussion about Canada's submarine procurement strategy, with emphasis on domestically developed autonomous capabilities in lieu of large sub purchase.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Such a poor take from a guy who should know better. The cost of the actual aircraft have declined substantially since Harper first suggested buying these. Not only have costs gone down, the capabilities have gone up substantially. Where costs have gone up? Entirely on the Canadian side. Most notably on infrastructure. Turns out if you don't invest in your buildings and IT for several decades, there's going to be compatibility issues with new equipment. And resolving that will cost billions. The only fair attribution to cost increase on the American side is that support costs have gone up. And most of that is straight up inflation. So everything else will be just as expensive.
But also, O'Toole's idea that we use CCAs....That only works if they have manned fifth generation jets to accompany. If not, it's a headless chicken running around. None of these systems have yet been designed with end to end autonomy while also being capable of reacting to a changing system. They can fly a pre-programmed path and deliver payload. But then, so can a cruise missile.
All that said, I am a huge fan of Paikin.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Bad news for the RCAF I guess. An AEW aircraft that can't refuel in the air and a fighter that will definitely be obsolete in its usable life.
www.theglobeandmail.com
All that remains to be seen is what this does to our relationship with the US. So far, despite all the economic issues, the military relationship hasn't been been affected. This is despite Peter Navarro calling for this:
www.lawfaremedia.org
The proposed numbers make it bad. If there F-35 was just cut to 50-60 and we purchased just as many Gripens that would be defensible. Getting 70 Gripens and 30 Panthers will not sit well.
And I'm really worried what this does to the effectiveness of an air force already short on pilots and technicians.
Saab CEO confirms talks with Ottawa, Bombardier for Gripen fighter jet production
Talks to continue during royal visit of Sweden’s King and Queen to Canada next week
www.theglobeandmail.com
All that remains to be seen is what this does to our relationship with the US. So far, despite all the economic issues, the military relationship hasn't been been affected. This is despite Peter Navarro calling for this:
Canada's Expulsion From Five Eyes Would Be a Disaster
The latest edition of the Seriously Risky Business cybersecurity newsletter, now on Lawfare.
www.lawfaremedia.org
The proposed numbers make it bad. If there F-35 was just cut to 50-60 and we purchased just as many Gripens that would be defensible. Getting 70 Gripens and 30 Panthers will not sit well.
And I'm really worried what this does to the effectiveness of an air force already short on pilots and technicians.
lenaitch
Senior Member
But a range of about 6500 NM/ 14 hours (ish) on the BBD 6500 platform is pretty impressive. Having said that, would there be space for a relief crew? I'd hate to see them start to dink around with it and try to add piping for AAR.