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F-35 Fighter Jet Purchase

The rule since the 90s has been simple: one fleet per mission.

And I suppose that is my point - we seem to want to wring multiple missions (territorial/sovereignty defence and NATO/UN) out of a single platform. My position was that I was a fan of a mixed fleet; I didn't intend to mean that I expected it to happen. For overseas deployment, I honestly don't see much of a degrade from our current position. We haven't gone in 'day one' in my memory. I agree that the chances of warloads and various others having fairly sophisticated and simple air defences is much greater than in the past, and that is a problem, but likely somewhat more manageable. If the world comes to a shootin' war between major powers, our contribution will be short-lived, as will be the war.

If our very limited budget is to be biased in any direction, I'll vote for domestic defence everyday. Overseas deployments can be debated by the tall foreheads and worry about our international reputation, membership commitments and the like, and we can respond as we deem appropriate, but any nation that wishes to call itself sovereign cannot contract out its domestic integrity. This extends beyond fighters. I agree with you regarding the Griffons - they are barely adequate for just about any mission they are expected to perform, and they are aging.
 
But as long as we have politicians and their fortunate sons that send our lads into harm's way, I'd like them to have the kit to actually do the job and come home alive.

And that's always going to be the challenge isn't it. We can have all of the pretty words defence policy we want, but if the civilian government says 'go and do', the military 'goes and does', with what it has, primarily because that's what they are supposed to do. The problem seems to be that the political decisions are made either in spite of the tactical advice received, or the military command is very poor at speaking truth to power. I'm not sure if it is one or the other or a combination.
 
On the fighter role we need to buy something, and soon, likely to begin entering service by 2025, with fleet wide replacement of the CF-18 two years later. So, unless the Cons pull a miracle, the fighter purchase must be on Trudeau's watch. By 2025 the Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen will be out of production, as likely will be the Super Hornet, as its primary USN/USMC customer will be using the F-35 by then. Indeed, with the F-15 also out of production by then, Boeing will be out of the fighter business entirely.

So the options for Trudeau by 2025 will be F-35, and:
On the first two, if you think the F-35 was a boondoggle of government overspend and mismanagement, just wait until the Euros try to build another fighter together. It took them a decade too long to launch the Eurofighter. All three of the above F-35 alternatives will arrive too late to replace the CF-18, so we'll need to fill that gap with something, or buy the F-35.

My guess is that we'll fly the CF-18s until 2025. Trudeau will have just won the 2024 election, and seeing the F-35 in general service around the world, will decide to take it too.
 
I wonder what exactly the mission for these fighters will be. If it’s defence of Canadian airspace and sovereignty, then the two jobs appear to be shooting down vintage Russian bombers and commercial aircraft commandeered by terrorists. Neither threat would seem to require the numerically small and stupefyingly expensive fleet an F35 purchase would entail. If the goal is to make a minuscule, token contribution to America’s many and multiplying undeclared wars through active combat sorties flown by a dozen or so (max) Canadian planes, in order to pretend that we’re actually pulling our weight as a loyal minor spear carrier for the US, then the F35 makes more sense. Though why we would choose to break the military procurement budget for a mission of so little benefit to Canada - or to western security if the history of the past twenty years is any guide - is beyond me.

Why do people always say "they wonder"? The government's defence policy is on line. You can read it. And it explicitly lays out what the roles of the military will be.
 
And I suppose that is my point - we seem to want to wring multiple missions (territorial/sovereignty defence and NATO/UN) out of a single platform.

You misunderstand what mission stands for. An air defence mission is exactly the same whether it's taking place over the Arctic or over Libya. Sure, they adjust a bit contextually. But they fly with the same tactics, same doctrine and same readiness.

This is what one fleet per mission means. Or more accurately one fleet per role, if you prefer:

Strategic airlift: C-17
Tactical airlift: C-130J-30
Fixed Wing SAR: CASA 295 (much to my chagrin....)
Rotary Wing SAR: EH-101
Utility Helicopter: Griffon
Maritime Patrol: Aurora
Tactical Fighter: CF18
Maritime Helicopter: S-92
Air to Air Refueling: Polaris
VVIP lift: Challenger

Etc. But you get the picture.... We don't plan fleets based on their theatre of operations. They are acquired based on their role in service.

For overseas deployment, I honestly don't see much of a degrade from our current position.

Like I've said repeatedly. It's not about today. It's about the life of the aircraft. Our capability will remain roughly the same, while our adversaries will get better. That reduces the margin of safety. Do you want our crews to always have an 80% chance of coming home. Or are you willing to accept 50% in 2040? That's sort of the question.

And maybe the government just doesn't really care. And they don't give a shit about what happens 20 years from now. But any staff planner has to consider the evolution of technology, geopolitics, etc. over the life of the platform when writing specs.

We haven't gone in 'day one' in my memory.

Really close on several conflicts. Libya and Kosovo come to mind. And in both cases we had operations taking place while the enemy still had active air defences. This statement is almost maddening. Canadians just don't understand how much risk our crews have taken. And because of that, they are willing to underspend on them and risk their lives even more.

If our very limited budget is to be biased in any direction, I'll vote for domestic defence everyday.

Like I said earlier we acquisitions are decided by role not the theatre of operations. A fighter that does well overseas will be just as capable at home. And it's absurd to suggest that the CAF has ever not made domestic ops its paramount priority. Every domestic line of tasking from arctic surveillance to search and rescue to counter-drug ops on the coasts, have always been defined as "no fail" missions by the service chiefs. They will assign whatever resources it takes to get the jobs done.

but any nation that wishes to call itself sovereign cannot contract out its domestic integrity.

That ship has sailed a long time ago. Ever since Canadians decided they'd be happy letting the Americans do all the heavy lifting in North America.

I'm on exchange at the moment in the US for postgrad at an American service academy. There's more US Navy colleagues here who have seen the Arctic than our Navy. The Arctic has become an absolute playground for nuclear subs between the Americans, the Russians, the French and the Brits. Even the Chinese are getting in on it.

I've had planning classes with the Americans who are now actively discussing how to deploy a career group in the Arctic (post climate change). It's actually a running joke in the classes that we claim the Arctic archipelago. I say joke, because as Canadians we mention it and the Americans just laugh us off. The know that Canada will never field what it actually takes to defend half a continent: half a dozen nuclear subs and a few aircraft carriers. And we all know that we'll need the Americans to do what we cannot and will not ever do.

Heck, I just met a assistant deputy minister a few weeks back and was discussing my postgrad with him (space systems is one of my majors). They're thinking of starting up a space unit. Meanwhile the Americans have better coverage of the Arctic with their Defence Meteorological Satellites than our entire government.

Spending time here, you start to become aware of how amazingly hypocritical our government and society is. We don't put any resources into the region that we claim is virtually foundational to our identity as a nation. Even the recently defence review doesn't change much. And this has nothing to do with the size difference between Canada and the US. If we put in the 2% of GDP that is the NATO target, we'd have 100 F-35s, and a carrier on each coast and a handful of highly capable diesel subs at minimum, a system of comms and surveillance satellites and a few armoured tank regiments to boot.

We're so far behind. That we just laugh it off now. It's 2017. We just started recruiting cyber operators. And we're standing up our first cyber unit. They think it'll take them years to achieve full operational competency. So we might have a moderate military cyberdefence capability in 2020.

The problem seems to be that the political decisions are made either in spite of the tactical advice received, or the military command is very poor at speaking truth to power.

I've sat in on ministerial briefings. I assure you that our military chain of command is very good at communicating the issues of the day. As an apolitical entity, however, they cannot speak out publicly. And in Canada, we don't have the traditions that the Americans do, for example, of dragging up generals before congressional committees. Nor for that matter do most Canadians care about our parliamentary committees. And I suspect for most Canadians, SCONDVA is probably even lower on the list of committees they'd follow.

Wanna to know what happens to senior officers who speak out? Ask Mark Norman.

My guess is that we'll fly the CF-18s until 2025. Trudeau will have just won the 2024 election, and seeing the F-35 in general service around the world, will decide to take it too.

I just don't understand why they can't have the competition. It gives them plenty of political cover. But they insist on making it hard for themselves.
 
This statement is almost maddening.

Apologies if my statement made you mad. I'm on this site for fun and don't want any of my comments to be the cause of or aggravate another's apoplexy. I was a government employee for 30+ years and fully understand that governments use words 'creatively' but the military has raised it to a bit of an artform. My daughter is with the CAF and like to think my general understanding is at least better than the general public's; although I fully appreciate that is a very low bar. However, it naturally cannot be as complete as an insider. If that level of knowledge is expected then, sorry, I'm out.

With a small military in a large country with a population clustered largely around urban centres close to the US border, I think at least part of the problem with our national apathy - besides not being invaded since 1814 - is that the general public has virtually no interaction with the military. With much of the population clustered around Vancouver/Toronto/Montreal, other than perhaps those living near an armory, how many Canadian ever see a member in uniform outside of Remembrance Day (Toronto snow removal notwithstanding). Afghanistan helped because of the media coverage. So long as it is not on the mind of voters, it will not be on the mind of politicians.

And it's absurd to suggest that the CAF has ever not made domestic ops its paramount priority

I certainly did not intend to imply that. Politicians set defence policy.

I've sat in on ministerial briefings. I assure you that our military chain of command is very good at communicating the issues of the day.

Good to hear. That confirms that the politicians and bureaucrats are capable of making bad decision based on good advice.
 
The know that Canada will never field what it actually takes to defend half a continent: half a dozen nuclear subs and a few aircraft carriers. And we all know that we'll need the Americans to do what we cannot and will not ever do.

Spending time here, you start to become aware of how amazingly hypocritical our government and society is. We don't put any resources into the region that we claim is virtually foundational to our identity as a nation.
This is where I'd like to see our nation focus its military focus, that of projecting power or at least supporting our land claims in the north. Carriers aren't needed, but let's get subs, surface warships and aircraft permanently based in the Arctic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an agreement or diplomatic barrier to Canada fielding SSNs? So, it's AIP SSKs?
 
This is where I'd like to see our nation focus its military focus, that of projecting power or at least supporting our land claims in the north. Carriers aren't needed, but let's get subs, surface warships and aircraft permanently based in the Arctic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an agreement or diplomatic barrier to Canada fielding SSNs? So, it's AIP SSKs?
There’s the problem of cost. Your plan would require a quantum leap in defence spending to at least 2.5% of GDP or perhaps even 3.0%, from its current level of around 1.0%. If not more. One percent of GDP is around $20 billion, so we’re talking about big numbers here. It would also require a radical restructuring of our political-military procurement process, which has consistently delivered at best mixed results in delivering very modest amounts of new equipment. This degree of commitment is not something Canadian governments have wanted to support at least since the late 1980’s. Proponents of radically increased defence spending will have to persuade a large fraction of the electorate that the benefits will outweigh the costs.

For what it’s worth, I’m not sure it would be possible to demonstrate that the loss of the arctic archipelago to Russia or China or the US would be an economic loss, particularly given the heavy cost of defending it, the decreasing likelihood that this country will ever approve greenfield resource extraction anywhere, and the increasing likelihood that any benefits from whatever does get developed will accrue solely to local aboriginal populations. I’m also not convinced that any level of defence we could fund would be capable of deterring or defeating one of these superpowers. We rely on our NATO collective security guaranty to protect our sovereignty, and we do the bare minimum to keep our NATO partners onside with sheltering us under their umbrella. This arrangement has its uncertainties, but it’s how we’ve chosen to live for a long time.

Finally, should we care about keeping the arctic? Of course losing it would be a blow to our inflated self-regard, but really, what do we gain by claiming sovereignty over places like Baffin Island? We’re already maxing out our national credit card, income taxes are confiscatory at the top brackets, and our health care and infrastructure need major investments. Where will the money come from? What should we sacrifice?
 
For what it’s worth, I’m not sure it would be possible to demonstrate that the loss of the arctic archipelago to Russia or China
The US will not tolerate Russian or Chinese annexation of North American territory. And nor would Canada. That's why we have NATO, NORAD, the Ogdensburg Agreement, etc. The fastest way to get US troops on Canadian soil is for Canada to demonstrably ignore Russian or Chinese territorial claims in North America.

Arctic sovereignty projection doesn't need to break the bank either. The latest AIP submarines cost under $400 million a piece, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_214_submarine This is a fair price considering our sub costs to date, including the below, but excluding repair costs of SSK 878's sea bottom collision:
  • $750 million acquisition cost of the four Victoria class subs
  • $40 million to repair SSK 879
  • $209-million 5 year refit SSK 877
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2016/06/07/cheap-subs-are-no-bargain-editorial.html

So, we buy four new AIP subs for $1.2 billion, plus added cost for ice capable towers. Base two subs year round with an ice breaker at Nanisivik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanisivik_Naval_Facility
 
This article from last month suggests Lockheed-Martin's F-35 is in the lead.

Only other option is buy the Super Hornet interim aircraft until the Eurofighter's replacement enters service in the 2030s.
 
Just out of interest, and way off topic,what would have been your preference?

Preference number one for all the SAR crews we surveyed were to swap their old Hercs for news one. So C-130J. The crews gave us two reasons:

1) Space. The C-130J allows them to carry a lot of kit. They can air drop a freaking snow mobile if necessary to the SAR crew on the ground.

2) 4 engines. If they lose one during a mission, they don't quit the mission. If we put them down to two engines, they said they would bug out at the hint of engine trouble.

Direction from air staff was that there's no serious economic rationale to justify flying a four engine aircraft for SAR. It was considered an acceptable risk to go to twin engine aircraft. That really made the C-130J uncompetitive, since it's more expensive overall. The next closest thing was the C-27J Spartan. Performance of a Herc, but twin engine. That was what everybody wanted if not for a Herc.

The CASA was the plane everybody detested. Performs like a dog when it comes to real world conditions that our guys do. On paper meets all our conditions for speed, payload and range. Unfortunately, does not meet that requirement combined, which is what you need for the Arctic or the Atlantic. Great for European SAR. Not so great for Canadian SAR. Political pressure was applied to make the competition competitive enough that the CASA had a shot. And the outcome is what we see here. Someday in the next 30 years, a Canadian (or more) will die because the politicians decided not to let us get a more capable airframe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an agreement or diplomatic barrier to Canada fielding SSNs?

The Americans conspired with the Brits to oppose it when Mulroney proposed the Canada class. Not sure if they'd let it go this time or not.

Ultimately, this is what it comes down to. Despite what Canadians think, the Arctic is playground for foreign nuclear submarines. On any given day, there's subs from at least three countries there. And the Americans do not want another player in there. Especially if we're not going to be serious and put several submarines there (allowing them some relief).

Carriers aren't needed

Yes, they are. I don't mean big honking carriers like what the Americans have. I mean an Amphibious Assault Ship. We came really close to buying the Mistrals under Harper:

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...-ships-initiative-on-hold-because-of-election

Perfect for us. Do some sea control with 6-10 F-35Bs. Do aid ops with helicopters and medics onboard. Imagine doing this in our response to Haiti for example. Do armed rescue (ie. Lebanon) by giving a platform for special ops guys. Or a more robust intervention with a light battalion doing amphibious assault.

We need two of these. One on each coast. Three would be preferable. With the third effectively acting as a spare for when one of the others is laid up.

Your plan would require a quantum leap in defence spending to at least 2.5% of GDP or perhaps even 3.0%, from its current level of around 1.0%.

No it wouldn't. All of that could be achieved within 2% of GDP. Don't forget that GDP is growing over time too. Right now, setting aside all the funny Liberal re-baselining to count pensions and the RCMP, our real spending is under 1% of GDP. Going to 1.5% would add $10 billion per year at today's GDP levels. At that rate Canada could absolutely afford aircraft carriers, a dozen nuclear subs (as envisioned by Mulroney) and a fleet of its own military satellites, along with an air force as large as it was in the 80s.

So, we buy four new AIP subs for $1.2 billion, plus added cost for ice capable towers

LOL at your naivete. Shipbuilding is a jobs scheme in this country. Whatever subs we get will cost at least 5x what you see on Wikipedia for their home country acquisition cost. We're going to spend $60+ billion for 15 ships:

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...-and-bidders-will-have-a-chance-for-a-do-over

$4 billion per ship. And we've not even cut first steel. Who knows what the final price tag will be. We should aim for a nice round number. Say $100 billion? The same ships are all a few hundred million dollars in their home countries.

The government actually rejected an offer from the French that would have saved $20+ billion:

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...nies-said-would-save-taxpayers-as-much-as-32b

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...nes-naval-group-fincantieri-frigate-offering/

And yet you get people crying about the F-35. While a fleet of F-35s is maybe a billion more than its alternatives. It's nuts.

Looks like we’re stuck with the CF-18 until 2032.

C'est la vie. One of our two Sea King operational squadrons just retired their Sea Kings on Friday:

https://www.verticalmag.com/press-releases/423-squadron-conducts-last-sea-king-flight/

Only about 20 years late. So the Hornets going about a decade late is progress I guess.....
 
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I suppose by 2032 we may have the option of the Eurofighter Typhoon’s replacement.

When they say they will be out in 2032, they mean the last one. We'll pick and start getting planes in the middle of the next decade. The last CF-18 will retire in 2032.

Though, I am really not sure how they can sustain the fleet for that long. That will be an accomplishment.
 

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