Exisisting Urban Rail Lines for Subway and LRT Use.

[Palma]

The disdain for the suburbs are defined by development style, not people. Lower density, not in walking distance of groceries, not in walking distance of restaurants and retail, not in walking distance of decent transit, and usually nowhere near work. Sure, people choose those places but the disdain isn't with the people, it is with the idea that after choosing to live there that there is an expectation of an urban level of services. It is much like living near the airport and complaining about the airport noise... why shouldn't they get to have the quiet everyone else has or why shouldn't everyone else feel the pain.

Agreed 100%

 

[spider]

Enabling longer commutes enables sprawl

What is sprawl?
A guy living on a street corner on Bay Street likely considers Corktown to be sprawl, what is your definition?

I read a message here on UT stating the opinion that sprawl started at Eglinton Avenue, a reply posited that the tree line was closer to Bloor St.

I live in a subdivision way up north of York Mills Rd. yet if "walkability" is the standard metric in determining how "urban" your location may be I suggest that my humble suburban home is more urban than many way down south of Eglinton or Bloor. I can walk to a supermarket, Shoppers Drugs, Doctor, Dentist, library, 3 public schools, 3 parks, an arena and walking trails in less than 10 minutes. There is one subway bound bus stop about 30 seconds more or less from my front door and another 7 minutes away. I can hop into my car and be on the 401 or DVP in under 5 minutes.

 

[kkgg7]

Did you have a bad experience with someone from the suburbs early in your life? You seem to have real disdain for "suburbanites"

No, I had never met anyone from the suburbs early in my life.
I am annoyed by the fact that they choose to live so far away from the city and all the good things related to the city yet on the other hand, they think the city should provide a means to transport them to the centre and all the things they need RAPIDLY and FREQUENTLY.
Remember, it is a voluntary choice, just like when I choose to live downtown, I didn't and will never expect the city to provide ample free parking, serene tree lined streets and neighbours living more than 100 meters away. I don't, because that's the cost I pay for living in the city. However, the suburbanites seems to want both a quiet life/big houses with yards AND super fast and convenient transit to downtown any time them want. Nor should the city consider it a priority to give them that, since when they choose to live 30km away, they should know what life would be and what price they will pay.

People choosing to live far away add tremendous cost to the need of infrastructure, don't you guys realize that? If most of the residents live south of Lawrence Ave, then there will be less need to build subways extending that far just to cater to that need. There will be no need to have libraries and other services to be situated in sparsely populated areas, the cost of which is essentially the same as those serving dense area.

Don't you guys get that? In choosing to live in the suburbs, you are essentially adding to the financial burden of the city, and everyone living in the dense core area is subsidizing you. You think it is the freedom of lifestyle choice, I say it is pure selfishness.

 

[kkgg7]

What is sprawl?
A guy living on a street corner on Bay Street likely considers Corktown to be sprawl, what is your definition?

I read a message here on UT stating the opinion that sprawl started at Eglinton Avenue, a reply posited that the tree line was closer to Bloor St.

I live in a subdivision way up north of York Mills Rd. yet if "walkability" is the standard metric in determining how "urban" your location may be I suggest that my humble suburban home is more urban than many way down south of Eglinton or Bloor. I can walk to a supermarket, Shoppers Drugs, Doctor, Dentist, library, 3 public schools, 3 parks, an arena and walking trails in less than 10 minutes. There is one subway bound bus stop about 30 seconds more or less from my front door and another 7 minutes away. I can hop into my car and be on the 401 or DVP in under 5 minutes.

It is good that your neighbourhood is walkable for the daily necessities. However, sprawl isn't defined by how far one lives away from a main street. It is defined by how often to you need to travel far (say more than 10km).

When you live close to existing amenities, that's dense living. When you live farther and farther away hence requiring the city to provide additional serves, that is the beginning of sprawl. For example, if there is a public library at Bloor/St George, it serves 8000 residents living by. On the other hand, if one choose to live at I don't know, somewhere called "Nowhere Ave" in Scarborough, a library of similar size serves only 800 people living by. The cost of operating that library is roughly the same. What do you think is good for the city?

Then if one lives at Eglington ave, the city only needs to big a subway of 4km there to bring people to work and other things. Yet if you live at Steeles Ave, it is more than 14km and the cost of digging that tunnel is two or three times more, just because you choose to live near Steeles as houses are bigger and streets are quieter. It is not like there is no decent space to live south of Eglinton. Toronto is big and there is plenty of sparse space closer to downtown. What makes it worse in Toronto is that, the flat fee system means people who live close to downtown who usually travel shorter distance pay the same as those who live far, therefore subsidizing the suburbanites again. If the subway didn't need to run that far and cost 50% less, the fare didn't have to be this much in the first place!

So don't pretend "my neighbourhood doesn't require me to drive a car to buy kitchen towels". The fact is, by living far away in sparse area, everything costs more due to lack of economies of scale, and when the costs evens out, you are subsidized by others. Yes you can hop in the car and be on DVP in under 5 minutes, have you thought about the fact that people who don't drive a car actually also paid for the DVP and its maintenance just because you choose a car dependent life？

 

[TOareaFan]

No, I had never met anyone from the suburbs early in my life.
I am annoyed by the fact that they choose to live so far away from the city and all the good things related to the city yet on the other hand, they think the city should provide a means to transport them to the centre and all the things they need RAPIDLY and FREQUENTLY.
Remember, it is a voluntary choice, just like when I choose to live downtown, I didn't and will never expect the city to provide ample free parking, serene tree lined streets and neighbours living more than 100 meters away.

With respect, you really need to visit the suburbs if this is your image of it. Neighbours living more than 100 meters away sounds, to me, like the countryside....not suburbs.

I don't, because that's the cost I pay for living in the city. However, the suburbanites seems to want both a quiet life/big houses with yards AND super fast and convenient transit to downtown any time them want. Nor should the city consider it a priority to give them that, since when they choose to live 30km away, they should know what life would be and what price they will pay.

People choosing to live far away add tremendous cost to the need of infrastructure, don't you guys realize that? If most of the residents live south of Lawrence Ave, then there will be less need to build subways extending that far just to cater to that need. There will be no need to have libraries and other services to be situated in sparsely populated areas, the cost of which is essentially the same as those serving dense area.

Don't you guys get that? In choosing to live in the suburbs, you are essentially adding to the financial burden of the city, and everyone living in the dense core area is subsidizing you. You think it is the freedom of lifestyle choice, I say it is pure selfishness.

How is asking for expanded GO service puting a burden on the city of Toronto? The province owns GO, the same province that created Places to Grow....which puts, amongst other things, a burden on places like Brampton (the suburb I am most familiar with) to grow its population to +/- 700k but, as of yet, sees fit to provide the current 500k with one highway and 4 GO trains a day.

This need not be a suburb v city thing....the region as a whole has to find trasportation/mobility solutions....solutions that get people in the burbs into and out of the city and solutions that solve the ever growing problem of reverse commute issues as, more and more, people who live in the city find employment in Markham and Mississauga offices or in warehouses in Brampton or at Mississauga International Airport

 

[Memph]

It is good that your neighbourhood is walkable for the daily necessities. However, sprawl isn't defined by how far one lives away from a main street. It is defined by how often to you need to travel far (say more than 10km).

When you live close to existing amenities, that's dense living. When you live farther and farther away hence requiring the city to provide additional serves, that is the beginning of sprawl. For example, if there is a public library at Bloor/St George, it serves 8000 residents living by. On the other hand, if one choose to live at I don't know, somewhere called "Nowhere Ave" in Scarborough, a library of similar size serves only 800 people living by. The cost of operating that library is roughly the same. What do you think is good for the city?

Then if one lives at Eglington ave, the city only needs to big a subway of 4km there to bring people to work and other things. Yet if you live at Steeles Ave, it is more than 14km and the cost of digging that tunnel is two or three times more, just because you choose to live near Steeles as houses are bigger and streets are quieter. It is not like there is no decent space to live south of Eglinton. Toronto is big and there is plenty of sparse space closer to downtown. What makes it worse in Toronto is that, the flat fee system means people who live close to downtown who usually travel shorter distance pay the same as those who live far, therefore subsidizing the suburbanites again. If the subway didn't need to run that far and cost 50% less, the fare didn't have to be this much in the first place!

So don't pretend "my neighbourhood doesn't require me to drive a car to buy kitchen towels". The fact is, by living far away in sparse area, everything costs more due to lack of economies of scale, and when the costs evens out, you are subsidized by others. Yes you can hop in the car and be on DVP in under 5 minutes, have you thought about the fact that people who don't drive a car actually also paid for the DVP and its maintenance just because you choose a car dependent life？

You realize that about half of the GTA's densest census tracts are in the suburbs, in Mississauga, North York, Etobicoke, East York and Scarborough. Even among the single family home neighbourhoods, the new ones are about on par with North Toronto, The Beaches and Washington, DC.

As for subsidization... there are plenty of people who paid for transit through their taxes even though they drive. Both the highways and transit are subsidized by people who don't use them. And to EnviroTO, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Toronto should pay for transit outside it's city limits, that should be mainly the responsibility of the suburbs and the provincial and federal governments - although the city of Toronto could stand to benefit if the suburban transit brings in workers that support more office buildings and shoppers that support retail, theatres, Ontario place, etc. Also, much of the people getting on the subway at Finch do pay property taxes to the city of Toronto. The city limits are at Steeles.

And as for space, it might seem like there is a lot in the Old City of Toronto, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not that much. The waterfront lands might seem huge, but they West Don Lands, Lower Don Lands and East Bayfront are only expected to house 24,500 residential units. The rest of the Port Lands might add another 15-20,000 units. Downtown Toronto? Maybe 40,000. Laneway housing? Apparently only 6000 units. The Avenues? Maybe around 100,000 units. Various other nodes, like Yonge-Eglinton or Liberty Village? Maybe 20,000 units. Add all of that up and you get 210,000 units. That's pretty impressive, but the population of the 416 and 905 suburbs is about 5,000,000. Compound that with the millions more the region will grow by in the coming decades, and the shrinking average household size. So there's enough room in the Old City of Toronto to house about 5-10% of the suburban population and future new units. That means either you destroy neighbourhoods like Rosedale, Trinity Bellwoods or Riverdale and replace them with glass towers, or you accept that the suburbs will have to handle much of the future growth and plan your transportation network accordingly.

You also need to consider that not everyone who lives in the suburbs wants to live there. Some live there because it's all they can afford. What's the cheapest 2 bedroom unit you can get in the old city? In Jane-Finch, you can buy a 2bed/1bath apartment for $40,000 according to MLS. The unit is probably in pretty bad shape, but if you just immigrated to Canada with empty pockets, it will have to do. These apartment complexes in the suburbs should be provided with good transit. It is these areas that have comparable densities to the densest parts of Toronto, the people there often cannot afford a car and would most likely make use of the transit, and there is a lot of potential for intensification. Unlike downtown Toronto, where the highrises are often surrounded by lowrise buildings of historical value, the highrises in the suburbs are often surrounded by grass, parking lots, strip malls and post-war townhouses, which means these areas can be intensified to levels that would make providing transit - and other services very efficient. Also, many of these highrises areas are lined up along major roads: Finch, Lawrence, Eglinton, Jane, Bathurst, Bayview, Warden, Kingston Road, McCowan, Sheppard, Don Mills and Kennedy, which makes it pretty straightforward to build transit routes since you have a good ROW to work with and the routes won't have to make twists and turns to hit the areas of high density. Plus, these high density areas are about as far apart as rapid transit stations.

 

[spider]

You also need to consider that not everyone who lives in the suburbs wants to live there.

Probably true but so is the corollary. I am sure I am not alone in choosing to live in the suburbs, not everyone works downtown these days nor do they shop there. Except for trips to the hospitals on University Ave. (why are they there anyway, could they be less accessible to most Torontonians) I visit downtown Toronto maybe twice a year. The Ballet, Opera, theatres and professional sporting events are only available downtown but I either can't afford them or have zero interest. How often does the average person visit a Museum or Art Gallery?

 

[nfitz]

How often does the average person visit a Museum or Art Gallery?

With a membership and a small child? Every couple of weeks between the Science Centre and the ROM.

On the flip side - I don't think my daughter has ever seen a suburban shopping mall.

No shortage of hospitals in suburbia ... Mississauga seems full of them ... and they are in other regions.

I suppose you might have to go into downtown to see a specialist, but they are pretty accessible by subway or GO Train. And you can always drive. I can tell you that going to see a specialist here is nothing like what you get in the rest of the province. When my brother used to live in Guelph, they kept having to drive to St. Thomas to see a particular specialist ... I can't imagine that Mount Sinai is less inconvenient for anyone in the GTA than that ... both him and his partner had to take an entire day off.

 

[spider]

On the flip side - I don't think my daughter has ever seen a suburban shopping mall.

You must be so proud.

I suppose you might have to go into downtown to see a specialist, but they are pretty accessible by subway or GO Train.

In a wheelchair?

My wife had surgery in both Mt. Sinai and Toronto General in the last year, a casual straw poll of fellow patients revealed that virtually every other patient was from out of town such as Sarnia or North Bay, not Toronto. Nurses and technicians tended to live in Burlington, Barrie and everywhere else but Toronto.

I repeat, why are such government funded facilities in areas where neither their clients or employees tend to live?

 

[EnviroTO]

What is sprawl?
A guy living on a street corner on Bay Street likely considers Corktown to be sprawl, what is your definition?

When a place isn't sprawling people can go to work in a car in than 20 minutes on local streets or transit. Without sprawl freeways and non-local rail is relegated to a function of transporting goods, intercity travel, or rare trips.

 

[spider]

When a place isn't sprawling people can go to work in a car in than 20 minutes on local streets or transit.

Then sprawl is nothing to wring our hands about as it has been with us for a very long time.

 

[jje1000]

Then sprawl is nothing to wring our hands about as it has been with us for a very long time.

70 years, max. Enough for the first generation to grow up feeling like it's been always there.

My wife had surgery in both Mt. Sinai and Toronto General in the last year, a casual straw poll of fellow patients revealed that virtually every other patient was from out of town such as Sarnia or North Bay, not Toronto. Nurses and technicians tended to live in Burlington, Barrie and everywhere else but Toronto.

I repeat, why are such government funded facilities in areas where neither their clients or employees tend to live?

"My 'poll' indicates that I am right!"

As for why hospitals cluster in one area,

1.) The first hospitals were located there. Not in your eternal suburbs.

2.) The hospitals cluster in order to draw upon each other's strengths. See this, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Medical_Center

Probably true but so is the corollary. I am sure I am not alone in choosing to live in the suburbs, not everyone works downtown these days nor do they shop there. Except for trips to the hospitals on University Ave. (why are they there anyway, could they be less accessible to most Torontonians) I visit downtown Toronto maybe twice a year. The Ballet, Opera, theatres and professional sporting events are only available downtown but I either can't afford them or have zero interest. How often does the average person visit a Museum or Art Gallery?

Zero interest. The city thus becomes a means to an end, rather than a place to be.

 

[nfitz]

You must be so proud.

Proud ... no, it never even crossed my mind until I wondered what those children unfortunate enough to have to live in the surburbs did. When I was a kid in surburbia, we just wandered off and built things in the forest, and swum in the lake. But parents seem paranoid of letting kids be kids these day.

In a wheelchair?

So if we built a hospital at Casino Rama, it would magically be more accessible for wheelchair?

Besides, I've bumped into people from out of town on GO using wheelchairs to go to those exact hospitals.

Nurses and technicians tended to live in Burlington, Barrie and everywhere else but Toronto.

Given your past history of exaggerating the facts to advance your wild claims, I really have a problem believing that not only are the majority of support staff at a downtown hospital commuting from 905 - they are actually not even coming from Peel/York/Durham, but are coming from further away.

I repeat, why are such government funded facilities in areas where neither their clients or employees tend to live?

Hey, you were there ... you live in Toronto. I have appointments at Mount Sinai, and I live in Toronto. My wife has had appointments at several of those hospitals, and she lives in Toronto. Toronto is the centre of where all the people are. I can't imagine anyone advocating that major facilities should be moved somewhere else ... holy gravy train!

 

[Palma]

Probably true but so is the corollary. I am sure I am not alone in choosing to live in the suburbs, not everyone works downtown these days nor do they shop there. Except for trips to the hospitals on University Ave. (why are they there anyway, could they be less accessible to most Torontonians) I visit downtown Toronto maybe twice a year. The Ballet, Opera, theatres and professional sporting events are only available downtown but I either can't afford them or have zero interest. How often does the average person visit a Museum or Art Gallery?

They are located on subway line so how are they not accessible? And if the City does not offer you anything what could the suburbs possibly offer?

 

[ssiguy2]

Meanwhile back at using current rail lines.....................
The Peasron line should NOT become part of the GO system. The line should be of use to all Torontonians and should be transferred to regular subway/LRT rapid transit.
Georgetown GO is already having huge upgrades to capacity and is completely useless for Torontonians including those who go to Pearson for work.
Toronto should follow Vancouver's lead on what it did for the Canada Line. Metro station spacing, service levels, and regular fares to North Richmond wjere tje line splits where half the trains continue to Richmond Centre and half head west to YVR. Toronto could do this by using the Pearson metro line to North Etobiko station and then every other train continues to Pearson and every other trains spurs north to Woodbine/Humber using elevation.
A small extra fare for those going to Pearson of a couple bucks would be fine and is the norm around the world.