Eglinton LRT- Skytrain Beams Vs. Median Right-of-Way

[UD2]

I get angry when i think of the amount of money that we spend on EAs.

Sometimes I wish Toronto was communist. Beijing built 4 subway lines during the time that we spent talking about Transit City. Today, Beijng have 4 more subway lines and we have yet another EA.

 

[down on the upside]

because it took a communist country to go capitalist to build those subway lines? another great leap forward in logic!

 

[Mapleson]

I get angry when i think of the amount of money that we spend on EAs.

Sometimes I wish Toronto was communist. Beijing built 4 subway lines during the time that we spent talking about Transit City. Today, Beijng have 4 more subway lines and we have yet another EA.

In China they only have 9 years public education, would you like to exchange 25% of the education budget for an extra subway line a decade? Do you get angry when you think of the off the chart Beijing smog even after spending $17 billion in on air pollution in the last 3 years?

There are costs to a high standard of living and for the last 20 years education and health have strangled out infrastructure in the fight for funding. If you have any concern for your own health or outdoor enjoyment, the cost of an EA is peanuts compared to the cost of cleaning up problems it prevents in the first place.

 

[BMO]

In China they only have 9 years public education, would you like to exchange 25% of the education budget for an extra subway line a decade? Do you get angry when you think of the off the chart Beijing smog even after spending $17 billion in on air pollution in the last 3 years?

There are costs to a high standard of living and for the last 20 years education and health have strangled out infrastructure in the fight for funding. If you have any concern for your own health or outdoor enjoyment, the cost of an EA is peanuts compared to the cost of cleaning up problems it prevents in the first place.

Ironically, if kids could get to and from school faster, they could have longer school days and actually push 12 yrs of learning into 9 or 10 years...

I'm fairly certain Chinese citizens are fairly well educated, for the 9 years they provide, they do a pretty damn good job. Maybe because instead of breast feeding every student that doesn't want to put in the effort to study, they actually fail them instead of pushing them along, draining the system.

 

[Mapleson]

Ironically, if kids could get to and from school faster, they could have longer school days and actually push 12 yrs of learning into 9 or 10 years...

I'm fairly certain Chinese citizens are fairly well educated, for the 9 years they provide, they do a pretty damn good job. Maybe because instead of breast feeding every student that doesn't want to put in the effort to study, they actually fail them instead of pushing them along, draining the system.

Most "well educated" Chinese go on to private education after the public schooling. China is making the transition to a 12-year public system (fully state-funded for disabled people by 2015), but it takes time to grow the educational base.

I think the other half of the coin from the pampering state is the lack of discomfort in most developed nations. When you are your parents only hope for a better future, there is much more pressure (and support) to live up to your limitations. Rarely do people do so without facing mountains of adversity.

However, failing more students wouldn't lessen the drain. They'd still have to be "retaught" the next year until they graduate or drop out. Could we start a program to deport people if they can't graduate by the time they are 21 or choose not to? (Where I went to High School, 92% was a B, 85% was a C, and 69% was an F. )

 

[BMO]

Most "well educated" Chinese go on to private education after the public schooling. China is making the transition to a 12-year public system (fully state-funded for disabled people by 2015), but it takes time to grow the educational base.

I think the other half of the coin from the pampering state is the lack of discomfort in most developed nations. When you are your parents only hope for a better future, there is much more pressure (and support) to live up to your limitations. Rarely do people do so without facing mountains of adversity.

However, failing more students wouldn't lessen the drain. They'd still have to be "retaught" the next year until they graduate or drop out. Could we start a program to deport people if they can't graduate by the time they are 21 or choose not to? (Where I went to High School, 92% was a B, 85% was a C, and 69% was an F. )

I mean when students are failures and get 42% and are bumped up to a 50% just to get passed on to another teacher, doesn't make sense. We have high school graduates who aren't to standard because we let them through without doing the necessary work. If we actually let these kid fail, they would be held back a grade, and then the peer pressure of not falling behind your class mates would push them to work harder...or if they continue to fail, just send them to work on the Sheppard subway P jk)

 

[UD2]

because it took a communist country to go capitalist to build those subway lines? another great leap forward in logic!

My mistake then. I wish Toronto was fascist. Does that solve your problem with capitalism? I just wanted to avoid offending the jewish community who might be sensitive with the f word.

 

[UD2]

In China they only have 9 years public education, would you like to exchange 25% of the education budget for an extra subway line a decade? Do you get angry when you think of the off the chart Beijing smog even after spending $17 billion in on air pollution in the last 3 years?

Chinese universities have a total enrollment level of over 20 million and convocates more graduates every year than the entire population of the GTA census area, while a typical Chinese secondary school student will score much higher in math and sciences than a typical secondary school student from Canada or the United States.

In terms of pollution, the CO2 emission per capita in China is less than 1/3 of that in Canada. Which means if Toronto had the same level of population density as Beijing, our pollution problem will be 3 times worse than what Beijing is experiencing today. Now dare I imagine what our pollution problem will be like if we didn’t have the EAs?

I’m not advocating for Chinese communism. But we’d be fools to turn a blind eye on more efficient practices that are being implemented in other parts of the world.

 

[sixrings]

In terms of pollution, the CO2 emission per capita in China is less than 1/3 of that in Canada. Which means if Toronto had the same level of population density as Beijing, our pollution problem will be 3 times worse than what Beijing is experiencing today. Now dare I imagine what our pollution problem will be like if we didn’t have the EAs?.

Thanks for pointing out the faulty logic in maplesons comments.. It just seems that some people are anti-urban which is ironic since they are on this forum. I once heard someone say seriosuly that every single canadian should be able to have their own acre of land if they want. Thats some peoples utopia. Then they use things like pollution and crime to be negative towards cities. Maybe everyone could have a acre of land if we all grew our own gardens could work from home and our social needs were met by the internet. Since thats unrealistic we have cities. Cities have buildings and sure there is pollution. however if the sprawl keeps conintuing (THIS IS NOT A 905 HATE COMMENT, its just reality) there will be more and more pollution from building roads from cars and from mcmansion homes.. Its not just cities that cause pollution.

 

[Mapleson]

Chinese universities have a total enrollment level of over 20 million and convocates more graduates every year than the entire population of the GTA census area, while a typical Chinese secondary school student will score much higher in math and sciences than a typical secondary school student from Canada or the United States.

That's the difference when you have a system that elevates only the most motivated versus a system that tries to equip all citizens for a life in the workforce. I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China, but sure it's great that 1.5% of Chinese are seeking higher education. That'd be like the entire GTA enrolling only 135,000 students.

In terms of pollution, the CO2 emission per capita in China is less than 1/3 of that in Canada. Which means if Toronto had the same level of population density as Beijing, our pollution problem will be 3 times worse than what Beijing is experiencing today. Now dare I imagine what our pollution problem will be like if we didn’t have the EAs?

I’m not advocating for Chinese communism. But we’d be fools to turn a blind eye on more efficient practices that are being implemented in other parts of the world.

Per capita figures are relatively useless. Per capita, the US executes more prisons than China, does that make the US worse for human rights? China's rural population and urban population are two vastly different beast of roughly the same size (600m urban, 735m rural) and conflating the two groups makes a muddle. Canada's CO2 emissions are highly concentrated in Alberta for American oil production, but with an increasing chuck sent to Asia.

What more efficient practices from China are we turning a blind eye to exactly?

 

[UD2]

That's the difference when you have a system that elevates only the most motivated versus a system that tries to equip all citizens for a life in the workforce. I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China, but sure it's great that 1.5% of Chinese are seeking higher education. That'd be like the entire GTA enrolling only 135,000 students.


Per capita figures are relatively useless. Per capita, the US executes more prisons than China, does that make the US worse for human rights? China's rural population and urban population are two vastly different beast of roughly the same size (600m urban, 735m rural) and conflating the two groups makes a muddle. Canada's CO2 emissions are highly concentrated in Alberta for American oil production, but with an increasing chuck sent to Asia.

What more efficient practices from China are we turning a blind eye to exactly?

1. 135K is not much lower than what we're actually sending to the universities. But its not in question that Canadians on average receive higher levels of education than the Chinese. So I won’t argue this topic. However I would like to point out that much of China’s industry base does not require workers that hold bachelor degrees. These jobs that do not require a bachelor degree also happens to be the ones that we, in North America, are lobbying to back. Hence all the cries in the our government legislatures on China’s so called unfair currency valuation practices.

2. Per capita figures are useless? So are you claiming that the Chinese are 4 times wealthier than Canadians because China's nominal GDP is 4 times larger than that of Canada? Or are you simply claiming that the Chinese are at fault for creating pollution just because more of them are alive?

3. Canadians have been on top of the per capita pollution chart even before the Albertan oil boom. In fact, during the 1990s, Canada's per capita pollution ranked number 1 in the world.

4. Read my prior posts for illumination towards your last question.


btw. my last post on this debate. Let's get back on topic.

 

[BMO]

hopefully the communist Harper regime can get things rolling on this (shameless plug)

 

[Mapleson]

1. 135K is not much lower than what we're actually sending to the universities. But its not in question that Canadians on average receive higher levels of education than the Chinese. So I won’t argue this topic. However I would like to point out that much of China’s industry base does not require workers that hold bachelor degrees. These jobs that do not require a bachelor degree also happens to be the ones that we, in North America, are lobbying to back. Hence all the cries in the our government legislatures on China’s so called unfair currency valuation practices.

I'm not arguing that Chinese education is inferior to Canadian, just that they are different circumstances for different economies facing different social issues. We cannot recover the low-end labour market, nor should we really focus on it. As the world economy grows, you need to grab a slice of the immerging sectors to compete or else you are left with a dwindling supply of archiac jobs, like postmen and taxi drivers. China actually has raised their minimum wage in recent years and is now seeing the low-end labour flowing to even cheaper countries.

If China's currency is undervalued, then the construction cost for their projects is also undervalued.

2. Per capita figures are useless? So are you claiming that the Chinese are 4 times wealthier than Canadians because China's nominal GDP is 4 times larger than that of Canada? Or are you simply claiming that the Chinese are at fault for creating pollution just because more of them are alive?

Gross figures are useless as well. They conflate groups and circumstances. More Chinese are 4 times wealthier than average Canadians, but many more are 6 times poorer. The more you average or sum numbers, the less connection to reality they have.

3. Canadians have been on top of the per capita pollution chart even before the Albertan oil boom. In fact, during the 1990s, Canada's per capita pollution ranked number 1 in the world.

You have to go back farther to reach the Alberta oil boom start. My parents immigrated to Fort McMurray in the mid-70s, and already the Fort Mac super-pits were the largest two mines in the world and were producing 100,000 barrels per day. Canada is a large per capita polluter, but Canada also has higher air quality than many nations.

4. Read my prior posts for illumination towards your last question.

I had read your prior posts and failed to see any explicit efficiencies that could be applicable to the Eglinton LRT.

btw. my last post on this debate. Let's get back on topic.

You mean the topic of beams versus median right-of-way? I still favour at-grade construction in general because its cheaper and you can still grade-seperate intersections as needed. Instead of the median though, I prefer a one-side onstreet parking, one-side LRT stops.

 

[sjc]

Canada is a large per capita polluter, but Canada also has higher air quality than many nations.

I would think that pollution per sq. mile (or sq. kilometre/hectare) would be more appropriate than per capita. CO2 would be an exception (since it supposedly has a global effect), but I don't consider CO2 to be a "pollutant" but something that is necessary for plants to live.

 

[EnviroTO]

I would think that pollution per sq. mile (or sq. kilometre/hectare) would be more appropriate than per capita.

Depends what you are trying to measure. If you are trying to measure how irresponsible society is in general than a per capita value needs to be used. If you are trying to measure how noticeable the impact of their actions are then a per km^2 is more useful. Obviously the more you spread people out the less they will notice what the other people are doing.