Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[nfitz]

Blatant deception?

Yes. Anyone who goes out and says that a kilometre of subway on the routes proposed (except perhaps the extremes of Eglinton) cost $200-million is trying to fudge the numbers.

 

[Dan416]

Yes. Anyone who goes out and says that a kilometre of subway on the routes proposed (except perhaps the extremes of Eglinton) cost $200-million is trying to fudge the numbers.

Allow myself to quote...myself:

Blatant deception? We all know the cost will go up anyway. By your definition, Transit City is blatant deception as well. Yet you're a vocal Transit City supporter. So I question your motives and your double-standard doublespeak.

 

[nfitz]

So your position is that it isn't wrong to present numbers that are years out of date, because they will go up anyways ...

And how am I a vocal supporter? I've critiicized Sheppard East not being subway to Victoria Park, the alignment of Eglinton west of Renforth the Eglinton layout through Leslie, the choice of gauge, the prioritization of Sheppard East and Finch West over Don Mills, the use of LRT on Don Mills south of Eglinton, the construction of any LRT before the DRL ... and on and on ....

 

[Dan416]

So your position is that it isn't wrong to present numbers that are years out of date, because they will go up anyways ...

And how am I a vocal supporter? I've critiicized Sheppard East not being subway to Victoria Park, the alignment of Eglinton west of Renforth the Eglinton layout through Leslie, the choice of gauge, the prioritization of Sheppard East and Finch West over Don Mills, the use of LRT on Don Mills south of Eglinton, the construction of any LRT before the DRL ... and on and on ....

Wow when did I miss all that?

 

[Fresh Start]

It's no where close. SOS priced their subways at a lot more than $200-million per kilometre!

If this politician, in her first announcement, is willing to try and deceive us so much on cost, how can we take her seriously?

It's such blatant deception though ... or worse, is simply ignorance. In either case, is that ignorance what we want in office?

Vancouver’s Canada Line: 19 kilometres, 17 stations
$2.054 billion total (March 2009 dollars)
$108.1 million per kilometre

$2.169 billion total (in today’s dollars)
$114.1 million per kilometre

Montreal’s Orange Line Laval extension: 5.4 kilometres, 3 new stations + 1 retrofit
$772.2 million total (2007 dollars)
$143 million per kilometre

$815.4 million total (in today’s dollars)
$151 million per kilometre

Still think that Ms. Thomson is cooking her books? Or rather, that these numbers point towards a more dire truth; that through public apathy and quiescence, we have allowed the monopoly of in-house labour in the City of Toronto to escalate up the costs to build just about everything.

 

[kendrew]

Also the Canada Line was the first line to be built purely by a private company!

 

[officedweller]

I believe that it has received a bad rap from the way it was implemented in Toronto. I refuse to believe that it can't be made reliable and efficient like any other transit line. There's no question that the quality of service on the Vancouver Skytrain is higher than the RT despite using the same underlying technology, and I suspect that it would be more attractive if that same quality of service was provided.

Hypothetical, I know. But, hypotheticals are fun!

I would agree - SkyTrain handled record numbers during the Olympics - fromn TransLink's Buzzer Blog:

http://buzzer.translink.ca/index.php/page/4/

SkyTrain
- Expo/Millennium is up 54% to 369,700, including a single-day record of 488,000 on Sunday Feb. 14, when the normal Sunday average is around 150,000
- Canada Line averaged over 207,000 per day (in the 28-day period ending Jan. 28, Canada Line ridership averaged just under 94,000)

Edmonton Journal report:
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/opinion/Olympic+critics+leave+facts/2590293/story.html

...
It helps, too, that Vancouver's excellent transit system is zipping people so efficiently from place to place. The star of the games is the new $2.1-billion Canada Line, which stretches from the airport through the length of the downtown. With 20 trains running at two to three minute intervals, the Canada Line is carrying 200,000 to 250,000 passengers a day -- more than double its usual ridership. (The two older Skytrain lines, the Expo and Millenium, running every 108 seconds, are together carrying about 320,000 a day, an increase of some 33 per cent, while bus ridership has gone from 750,000 a day to 900,000. Local commuters say they're actually finding it easier and faster to get to work than usual.
...
The second lesson? A modern city can't work without efficient public transit. Edmonton's plan to expand LRT service to NAIT, Lewis Estates, and Mill Woods comes with an estimated cost of $3 billion, a heavy load for the City of Edmonton and city taxpayers to shoulder. But the $2.1-billion Canada Line cost the City of Vancouver just $29 million. That's because the costs were shared: Ottawa put in $450 million, the provincial government contributed $435 million, the Vancouver Airport Authority ponied up $300 million, and TransLink, the Metro Vancouver transportation authority, which serves the 22 communities of greater Vancouver, kicked in $334 million. The largest single investment, $750 million, came from the project's P3 private partner, InTransitBC. That precise funding model might not work here, but without meaningful federal, provincial and regional support, it's hard to see how we could get our new LRT system built by the end of this decade.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I always thought the big problem with the RT technology in Toronto is that it doesn't play well with our winters.

 

[Dan416]

I always thought the big problem with the RT technology in Toronto is that it doesn't play well with our winters.

Good point. I forgot about that. Okay subway it is then.

 

[golodhendil]

I always thought the big problem with the RT technology in Toronto is that it doesn't play well with our winters.

And my question about that, which I don't think was ever answered when I asked it before, is how ALRT fares in NYC and Beijing, esp this year when both cities got much more snow than Toronto.

 

[CDL.TO]

Good point. I forgot about that. Okay subway it is then.

There are more than two technologies out there. It's not just Bombardierâ„¢ Intermediate Capacity Transit Systemâ„¢ utilizing Advanced Rapid Transitâ„¢ Technology and Toronto-style subways. After all, they are talking about automating the grade-separated part of the Eglinton LRT line. And the Canada Line is automated and isn't SRT technology, either.

 

[Dan416]

There are more than two technologies out there. It's not just Bombardier™ Intermediate Capacity Transit System™ utilizing Advanced Rapid Transit™ Technology and Toronto-style subways. After all, they are talking about automating the grade-separated part of the Eglinton LRT line. And the Canada Line is automated and isn't SRT technology, either.

If Toronto-style subway is what Thomson is proposing, I'm going for that.

 

[nfitz]

Vancouver’s Canada Line: 19 kilometres, 17 stations
$2.054 billion total (March 2009 dollars)
$108.1 million per kilometre

$2.169 billion total (in today’s dollars)
$114.1 million per kilometre

Montreal’s Orange Line Laval extension: 5.4 kilometres, 3 new stations + 1 retrofit
$772.2 million total (2007 dollars)
$143 million per kilometre

$815.4 million total (in today’s dollars)
$151 million per kilometre

Still think that Ms. Thomson is cooking her books? Or rather, that these numbers point towards a more dire truth; that through public apathy and quiescence, we have allowed the monopoly of in-house labour in the City of Toronto to escalate up the costs to build just about everything.

In this forum we've had a lot of people go out of their way to say subway means Toronto-style subway. You can't build Toronto subways at Montreal prices, unless you'd like to transport Montreal's geology and narrow trains to Toronto, so that you build a single tunnel, instead of a twin tunnel.

Also, it looks like you have erroneously used the CPI to inflate dollars, which isn't appropriate for construction projects. Your building a subway, not going grocery shopping. Though for the Canada Line example, that would help you.

As for the Canada Line ... do you really think that Torontonians would accept a cut-and-cover subway being built down Eglinton after what happened on Yonge in the 1950s? And have you seen it? The stations are extremely small, about the length of 2 subway cars. It can barely handle the capacity now in Vancouver. Though I guess bringing in foreign workers to work at low wages is always an option.

 

[nfitz]

And my question about that, which I don't think was ever answered when I asked it before, is how ALRT fares in NYC and Beijing, esp this year when both cities got much more snow than Toronto.

Haven't been to Beijing ...

... but New York City gets more snow that Toronto? This winter perhaps ... but on average? How can you possibly make such a claim? We've discussed this before. Not only does Toronto get more snow, it's colder on average here, so it lasts longer.

 

[SlickFranky]

calm down...."esp this year when both cities got much more snow than Toronto."

the question is whether icts can handle snow/cold. does icts always suck, or is it just ours that sucks?