Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[urbanboom]

By contrast how many fatalities should we risk the public to, having them cross Eglinton at its busiest car-oriented stretch in order to access road-median LRT.

Yeah, I know. People will DIE because of the LRT. They'll DIE! This is Miller's plot to KILL PEOPLE!
"I'm sorry. I just love my subway, and I fear for them!"
Glen Beck has joined UT.

 

[Second_in_pie]

No thanks, I'd rather not wait 40+ years to get off the stupid bus on Eglinton. We have a funded solution which has the option of turing into a subway when the need arises. I really don't see the need for this to be cancelled so we can debate using money we don't have to build something we don't need and wait using time we don't have. Talk to me about subways when we need it. I'd use this subway everyday, but I don't live in a fantasy. This whole "SUBWAYS OR NOTHING!" bothers me. It does a lot more harm than good, because we'll more likely end up with option number 2 in that equation.

We actually do need subways right now! I think you misunderstand just how much we do. We most definitely don't have a healthy network. Eglinton is needed as a RT, to provide relief to the Bloor line in the west end, and as a connection to the Airport. If you can't see that need, I guess you can go amongst the ranks of Miller and Giambrone that think that LRTs will save the city and will turn all the desolate suburban wastelands into pretty european avenues with trams chugging past coffee shops and a smiling sun gracing the masses as they take the neighborhood LRT to work. This is not a reality, and it's a completely unsound basis for proper network transit planning.

I've said again, it's not a subways or nothing argument. The government was basically handing out written checks with Move Ontario 2020, which could easily have been fueled into a subway. But instead, we got LRT. Of course, there's still plenty of room to get a subway on track now, and even more funding will become available once Metrolinx gets on track to help with transit improvements through local revenue-generating activities. Even if we got absolutely no money, there would still be enough money in the current Eglinton funding to build the subway from Pearson-Don Mills, and you yourself said we don't need Subway through Wal-Marts, so I don't quite understand why LRT is exempt from that.

Your right, LRT wouldn't work on Yonge. But it works on Eglinton.

Just a question, why exactly does it work on Eglinton and not Yonge? By what seems like all the pro-TC posters here, the Yonge line should have stopped at Eglinton, and Bloor should have gone from Keele-Main, if even. Subway does not have to be anywhere near the levels of the Yonge or Bloor lines to be successful, and we won't ever have a sound network if we stay happy with "what works." In fact, the Yonge and Bloor lines are getting pretty close to not working, and we need more lines to supplement the network we already have. LRT might provide some of those concessions, but it doesn't do the job nearly as well as a true RT. Sure, Eglinton will work as LRT, but it'll be nowhere near the line's full potential. It'll do a very poor job of supporting Etobicoke, and will in no way provide a rapid connection with the airport.

I take the bus on Eglinton every day. Compare the densities of Bloor or Yonge to Eglinton. It isn't in the same league. I'm sure looking on a map from Markham, it must look like a major urban centre but, it's not. Yonge and Eg is only NOW starting to be developed to what is should be. And I'm afraid I can't say anyting more of the subject; this is what I feel. (Of course I could say the same thing AGAIN and AGAIN on different threat while having nothing new to say. People here have certainly found away to turn it into an artform. Say a lot, but don't really saying anything at all!)

I love how you assumed that I've never seen Eglinton in my life. I actually have quite a lot of spare time on my hands, which leads to expeditions to places like Eglinton and Islington at 6:30 in the morning with my bike, zipping back form Eglinton West to Islington, Scarlett or Martin Grove sometimes three times during rush hour to look at just how crowded the lines are at what times. I know where all the apartments are, and I've closely looked at travel patterns.

I never said that Eglinton was any more developed than Bloor, but I think it's unfair to compare Yonge and Eglinton to B-Y. B-Y is really part of Downtown, and the rest of the corridor doesn't draw off that. It doesn't really make sense to base an entire corridor on a single point. B-D has some high density around Dundas West and Landsdowne, as well as Islington, Main, Victoria Park and Old Mill (kind of.) Eglinton has tonnes of high density around Martin Grove and Scarlett Road, as well as a corridor similar to B-D from Black Creek to Laird, and a much fairer scattering of apartment buildings and condos than the B-D does on average, with plenty of space to improve.
But really, it's an apples to oranges comparison. We can't expect all our lines to be exactly like the B-D and YUS, and if you do, then again, I can't respect your opinion.

I think that it's the pro-TCers that have started this chain of the exact same information being passed over. Whenever a new point is raised about ridership, cost or whatever, they ignore it and go back to an already unanswered question. All you can say is "we already have it so why ask for more," and "it's not justified," which are hardly specific and who's logic has been broken time and time again.

Also, if you could change the name in your last quote, I didn't say that.

 

[kettal]

Finch's numbers are only that high due to the lack of a viable alternative for riders to use. Most the people filtering onto Finch/Yonge subway aren't necessarily doing so out of want. If parallel BRT services in the F.H.C. and along Hwy 27 were established, the 36's numbers would plummet.

What the hell is this shit? You could say the exact same thing about any bus route, anywhere.

 

[kettal]

That's a pretty good point. If anyone thinks that Eglinton LRT west of Don Mills won't be packed, then they need a serious reality check. I agree that a 4 car subway train like Sheppard would probably be reaching the limit after the first year.

I guess it's a good thing, then, that west of Don Mills, it will have a higher maximum capacity than Sheppard's 4-car-trains.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I guess it's a good thing, then, that west of Don Mills, it will have a higher maximum capacity than Sheppard's 4-car-trains.

I'm confused... Just for clarification, I'm not saying that the LRT will totally flop in bringing in riders. I'm sure that the LRT will divert almost just as many riders off the B-D as a subway would. As for walk ins and local riders (including to the airport,) I imagine the LRT will flop at that.

But what I'm talking about is service. The LRT might be able to get all those N-S bus riders, but is it actually the best way to serve them?

 

[nfitz]

I guess it's a good thing, then, that west of Don Mills, it will have a higher maximum capacity than Sheppard's 4-car-trains.

I assume you mean the current 6-minute or so service. I'd think that if they ramped it up to 90-seconds the capacity would exceed the maximum LRT capacity ... though that would require the Sheppard ridership to quadruple over the current.

 

[Rainforest]

I assume you mean the current 6-minute or so service. I'd think that if they ramped it up to 90-seconds the capacity would exceed the maximum LRT capacity ... though that would require the Sheppard ridership to quadruple over the current.

Come on. Yonge subway runs on 140-seconds headways today, and they are striving to get it down to 110-seconds through rather expensive signal upgrades. Sheppard subway won't warrant that kind of upgrades, even if it is extended.

 

[kettal]

I'm confused... Just for clarification, I'm not saying that the LRT will totally flop in bringing in riders. I'm sure that the LRT will divert almost just as many riders off the B-D as a subway would. As for walk ins and local riders (including to the airport,) I imagine the LRT will flop at that.

If you are heading to the airport, and you've got more than one piece of luggage, TTC will be an unpleasant experience, regardless of if it is subway or bus or streetcar. The demographic of air travellers who will use an Eglinton subway to the airport would be limited in any scenario.

I'm not sure what you mean by local riders, but I'm pretty sure that the LRT proposal is the best thing for local trips (as opposed to 10 km + trips).

But what I'm talking about is service. The LRT might be able to get all those N-S bus riders, but is it actually the best way to serve them?

Depends on where they're going to. Between Jane & Don Mills, it's a de-facto subway in every significant measurement.

 

[Fresh Start]

Yeah, I know. People will DIE because of the LRT. They'll DIE! This is Miller's plot to KILL PEOPLE!
"I'm sorry. I just love my subway, and I fear for them!"
Glen Beck has joined UT.

Hyperboles aside, would you feel safe crossing here? (sorry for the pic size)

I'm fully aware that there'll be crosswalks but jaywalking is a common offence in the city, and when someone's running late for an interview they just might dart out in traffic without caution to catch that last LRT, cause if it's missed they'll have to endure another five minute's wait. NOTE- I also put up this picture to display that Walmart you spoke of and its environs. Clearly there's already commerical demand in this area, suburbanites like to know that they can do all their shopping in one place then have reliable transit to take them home. And with nearby instituitions (Ashtonbee Campus of Centennial College) and high-density residential neighbourhoods (Jonesville, Ionview) it is reasonable to claim that stations at Eglinton Sq, Warden and Birchmount would be fairly high-trafficked.

 

[kettal]

^^^ The driving lanes will be narrowed to two lanes in each direction. Running across the road to catch a bus is not any safer. How many Big Box shoppers die when trying to catch an eastbound bus after a busy day at Wal-Mart??

 

[Fresh Start]

What the hell is this shit? You could say the exact same thing about any bus route, anywhere.

Language, much? And no you could not say this about any route, because most corridors through Toronto don't have a near vacant hydro corridor sitting just a few blocks to the north for most of its length. The key of Finch West LRT, to my understanding, is to provide a rapid feeder service to the subway lines, which only helps to add-on more passenger volumes onto Y-U-S where there are already constraints (and surely added loads from York U and Vaughan will make the Spadina trains much more full). Diverting the loads elsewhere is definitely a good idea (as Hwy 27 BRT to the Eglinton and Bloor Lines would offer) and its the failure to comprehend that basic fact that is indeed shit!

 

[kettal]

Language, much? And no you could not say this about any route, because most corridors through Toronto don't have a near vacant hydro corridor sitting just a few blocks to the north for most of its length.

So what's your logic. Finch is only the busiest bus route "because there's a vacant hydro corridor nearby"??? No, it's the busiest bus route because it provides a highly attractive service to a great number of people. I'd love to know how HWY 27 factors into this, considering Finch East has more riders than Finch West.

 

[Rainforest]

I think your missing the point that between Jane and Don Mills the service level will be roughly equivalent no matter the technology choice. Why would someone whose bus route on the way to B-D intercepted Eglinton that is going somewhere on the YUS continue in mixed traffic instead of transferring to Eglinton? Certainly that the vehicle looks different wouldn't prejudice riders that much.

This is correct. However, people who use N-S bus routes between Keele and Leslie, generally have more choices. Instead of taking an N-S bus to Bloor or Eglinton, they can take a short E-W bus ride to Spadina or Yonge subway. Therefore, Eglinton route, be it subway or LRT, will cause lesser change in ridership patterns on those routes.

The change in ridership patterns will be greater on outer routes (Kipling, Islington, Royal York, Jane, Don Mills, Vic Park, Warden).

Outside of between Jane and Don Mills there will be falloff in ridership compared to subway to be sure, but total ridership per capital dollar will be higher, and likely total ridership will be higher since an LRT will be much longer than a subway.

I agree that total ridership per capital dollar will be higher if LRT is built. The case for subway is based on two considerations: the relative ease of future extension of subway (no disruption in the already existing section) compared to LRT-to-subway conversion, and the appeal of subway airport connection.

The role of subway airport connection should not be underestimated. The subway ride from downtown London to Heatrow is something like 50 min as I remember, but Yonge to Pearson (18 km at 32 kph) would be slightly over 30 min. I'd find that competitive, given that just waiting for a cab might take 15 or 20 min.

 

[Fresh Start]

^^^ The driving lanes will be narrowed to two lanes in each direction. Running across the road to catch a bus is not any safer. How many Big Box shoppers die when trying to catch an eastbound bus after a busy day at Wal-Mart??

Which concentrates more harried and erratic drivers into fewer lanes. I'm not saying that accidents must happen, but you never know. On average two incidents per week occur in the downtown when streetcars come into collision with pedestrians.

Anyway, I don't know what I'm getting so worked up over. A subway linking Don Mills/Eglinton subway station to Kennedy is not apart of SOS' Phase 1. I doubt it'd warrant top status from the TTC/Metrolinx either. The western and central segment however should just be a subway for the sake of ridership growth potential and ability to interline trips and to utilize existing train yards for storage (Wilson still has space). The fact that a subway to the airport can circumvent the need for several other projects, makes it a credible worthwhile project can be built on the cheap. Urbanboom's commute from Don Mills to Kennedy could be minimized via implementation of BRT through that stretch with the same stop spacing as ECLRT. Best part, no costly LRT track-laying or closing down the corridor indefinitely. BRT could be up and running within mere months.

 

[Fresh Start]

So what's your logic. Finch is only the busiest bus route "because there's a vacant hydro corridor nearby"??? No, it's the busiest bus route because it provides a highly attractive service to a great number of people. I'd love to know how HWY 27 factors into this, considering Finch East has more riders than Finch West.

The beauty of the F.C.H. right-of-way is that it exists right across the length and breadth of Finch Avenue. Conceivably the BRT route could begin at Malvern Town Centre, by this timeframe a major transit hub. Local on-street operation could occur along Finch proper as far as Woodside Sq (but only with wider stop spacing). Then via McCowan it heads north and enters the F.H.C. This is possible because all of McCowan from the Town Centre into Markville could be fitted with it's own BRT lanes, creating an alternative for Markhamites instead of all dumping out onto the Yonge Line. Arguably there could be a looping of Bridletowne, the only trip-generator off Finch that wouldn't be directly catered to by the F.H.C. Seneca's main campus buildings are alot more proximal to Au Large towards the F.H.C. than they are to Finch. Old Cummer GO Stn, again is more direct. As is Bayview Mall shopping centre, St John's Hospital and the Finch GO Terminal. Heading west most of the commerical districts off Finch proper also extend up to the F.H.C., particularly at Keele and Jane. Blueprints of the Finch West Stn indicate that the back entrance point will be Four Winds, bordered directly by the F.H.C. West of Weston much like east of McCowan, would be on-street limit-stop service to Martin Grove. West of Martin Grove, depending on nimbyism, an elevated guideway could commence along Humber College Blvd serve the hospital and the college, cut through the parklands and make stops at Woodbine Live. Ultimately the line settles into a groove down the median of the 27/427.

Riders desiring local points off Finch will not appreciate having their closely spaced stop taken out; no more then long-haulers want to take more than an hour to criss-cross the city. So yeah that's my entire thought process on this issue, reduced frequencies of the 36/39 buses outside of peak hour, and one-continuous BRT line; the epitome of CROSSTOWN service via a line starting in Malvern and ending at Sherway Gdns (or Long Branch).