DVP Off Ramp to Bayview Northbound - Nobody Yields

[BurlOak]

^All incredibly good posts. There's little better to demonstrate inability to use bog simple protocol (and required by the HTA) than four way stop signs, and many/most drivers being oblivious of the Golden Rule in driving: (For right hand driving): Assuming all arrive at the four-way stop simultaneously, it's the driver on your right who has RoW. Failing this most simple test, is it any wonder that drivers can't do any of the other protocols required by Law and common sense?

What if 4 people all arrive at the 4 way Stop sign at the same time?

 

[BurlOak]

^All incredibly good posts. There's little better to demonstrate inability to use bog simple protocol (and required by the HTA) than four way stop signs, and many/most drivers being oblivious of the Golden Rule in driving: (For right hand driving): Assuming all arrive at the four-way stop simultaneously, it's the driver on your right who has RoW. Failing this most simple test, is it any wonder that drivers can't do any of the other protocols required by Law and common sense?

In hindsight, maybe the one on the left should have the right-of-way. In a traffic circle, it is the one on the left (i.e. who is already in the circle) who gets the right of way.

 

[Neutrino]

As far as I know, simultaneously means at the same time...

 

[BurlOak]

As far as I know, simultaneously means at the same time...

As far as I know, if 4 people all arrive at the same time (at a 4-way stop), there is always someone on the right and nobody will move.

 

[Neutrino]

I was just being facetious.

 

[drum118]

As far as I know, if 4 people all arrive at the same time (at a 4-way stop), there is always someone on the right and nobody will move.

Been there and seen it to the point I stop waiting for someone to make the first move and drive on after been the last one to arrived. I wait about 10-20 seconds before moving.

Rules of the roads are a thing of the past since 60% plus drives today don't give a shit about them and only think of themselves. Got to thank the government for allowing these 60% to hold a driver license in the first place.

As a note, have seen the same issue for round abouts.

 

[lenaitch]

Yeah. There a lot of drivers who are totally oblivious to the dangerous situation they create. Good example is this on/off ramp:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.7010...c4NbHIEgo1gW9rQulmAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Cars are merging on and off DVP within a span of 100m. It's a poor design amplified by horrible drivers. In GTA we have several types of drivers:
1. Terrified of everything, unable to drive. Period. Slam on the breaks, sudden unpredictable moves etc. They are unable to make a safe lane change. Hence, they park themselves in the most right lane, and drive 30-50km below the speed of traffic.
2. Drivers that believe they are amazing drives. However, in reality, they are horrible. You will find them in the left-lane driving below the speed of traffic. They park themselves in one lane (typically on the left). They are either unaware that there is a dozen cars behind them trying to overtake them, or they do it on purpose "defending the law".
3. Drivers that don't know any rules. They tend to either be extra cautious because they are not sure what's legal and what's not, or the opposite because of their ignorance.
4. Drivers that think that the road belongs to them. They would cut you off (like in an example provided by hawc), won't let you merge, or just plan act dangerously.

I specifically left out drivers that speed. Speed in itself (within a reason) is not dangerous. It's drivers that drive not according to the conditions or make sudden unpredictable actions that are way more dangerous.

I'll add one more: Drivers who, immediately after entering a highway, move over to the centre lane and camp out there for the duration. They are oblivious to traffic passing on both sides and unaware (or don't care) that they a technically in the large truck passing lane. They don't have the nerve to be in Lane 1 (rail lane) and don't want to have to deal with merging traffic in the 'slow' lane. I will give them one pass; however, in and around Toronto freeways when the right lane often disappears as a ramp.

 

[steveintoronto]

As far as I know, if 4 people all arrive at the same time (at a 4-way stop), there is always someone on the right and nobody will move.

Oh Lordy, Lordy, Lordy! The point is made beyond all doubt.

This is the rule that controls most intersections when drivers arrive at an intersection simultaneously. For instance, you come upon a stop sign at the same time as another driver in a cross street and he is on your right. You yield (give up) the right of way to that driver by letting him go first.
Who Has the Right of Way? - Safe Motorist

Videos

1:32
How to know who gets to go -- who has the right of way when driving
Defensive Driving
YouTube - Feb 6, 2009

1:28
Who Has the Right of Way? | Driving Lessons
Howcast
YouTube - Jul 13, 2013

2:11
Who Has The Right Of Way At A All Way Stop/ Multi Way/ 4 Way Learn ...
johnnyboy3217
YouTube - Jul 22, 2014

https://www.insurancehotline.com/understanding-right-of-way-common-scenarios/

etc, etc, etc...

 

[BurlOak]

In

Been there and seen it to the point I stop waiting for someone to make the first move and drive on after been the last one to arrived. I wait about 10-20 seconds before moving.

Rules of the roads are a thing of the past since 60% plus drives today don't give a shit about them and only think of themselves. Got to thank the government for allowing these 60% to hold a driver license in the first place.

As a note, have seen the same issue for round abouts.

In Manitouwadge, the person inside the traffic circle yields to the person entering. I guess this is giving the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right to the extreme.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1253...4!1spz0jAjH2udGv4DPQTF-VPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[drum118]

In

In Manitouwadge, the person inside the traffic circle yields to the person entering. I guess this is giving the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right to the extreme.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1253...4!1spz0jAjH2udGv4DPQTF-VPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

All roundabouts I have been in and seen, the person in the roundabout has the right of way and cars entering them must yield to that driver. Standard way in Europe who have 2 plus lanes compare to our one.

 

[steveintoronto]

In

In Manitouwadge, the person inside the traffic circle yields to the person entering. I guess this is giving the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right to the extreme.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1253...4!1spz0jAjH2udGv4DPQTF-VPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A "traffic circle" is NOT a "roundabout"!

What is a roundabout? | WSDOT
https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Safety/roundabouts/BasicFacts.htm

Learn more about roundabouts by watching WSDOT's five-part video series on You Tube:

• Roundabouts: What they are and what they are not
• Roundabouts: How do I drive a roundabout?
• Roundabouts: Pedestrians and cyclists
• Roundabouts: Safety benefits
• Roundabouts: What does this mean for me?

Brian Walsh, Traffic Design Engineer
360-705-7986

 

[SunriseChampion]

All good complaints about wack drivers!

I hate driving around Toronto because easily 75% of drivers should not be driving. Sucks to be me though as I have to drive for work five days a week.

My biggest pet peeve is probably the wankers on highways who immediately cut over to the left lane and then drive at the speed limit and drivers who don't pass and move right but just cruise in the left lane, don't check their mirrors for cars coming from behind, etc.

As for the DVP to Bayview North offramp, I've never encountered OP's issue there, but would like to point out that drivers on Bayview at that point should be aware enough and corteous enough to move over to the left lane, if possible, when they see a car coming down that ramp.
That's just the obvious and correct thing to do in that situation.
Just like you'd move over a lane to the left on a highway to help allow merging traffic coming on to the highway.

 

[lenaitch]

In

In Manitouwadge, the person inside the traffic circle yields to the person entering. I guess this is giving the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right to the extreme.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1253...4!1spz0jAjH2udGv4DPQTF-VPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

As best as I can research, there are no specific rules or definitions in the Highway Traffic Act pertaining to roundabouts/traffic circles (there was a Bill before the Legislature but it must have died), so it boils down to basic rules of the road and signage compliance.

I still treat them will caution since I'm not convinced others do.

 

[MisterF]

Been there and seen it to the point I stop waiting for someone to make the first move and drive on after been the last one to arrived. I wait about 10-20 seconds before moving.

Rules of the roads are a thing of the past since 60% plus drives today don't give a shit about them and only think of themselves. Got to thank the government for allowing these 60% to hold a driver license in the first place.

As a note, have seen the same issue for round abouts.

I'll add one more: Drivers who, immediately after entering a highway, move over to the centre lane and camp out there for the duration. They are oblivious to traffic passing on both sides and unaware (or don't care) that they a technically in the large truck passing lane. They don't have the nerve to be in Lane 1 (rail lane) and don't want to have to deal with merging traffic in the 'slow' lane. I will give them one pass; however, in and around Toronto freeways when the right lane often disappears as a ramp.

It doesn't help that the police never enforce a lot of the rules. They pretty much nail people for speeding and little else. When something as dead simple as keep right except to pass is ignored by the cops, of course everyone else is going to ignore it.

 

[steveintoronto]

For Roundabouts:

Time to write rules for roundabouts
OPINION Aug 02, 2017 Kitchener Post


With the widespread adoption of roundabouts, don’t you think it’s time that the rules of the road are laid out in the Ontario Highway Traffic Act?

Kitchener-Conestoga MPP Michael Harris thinks it’s time and has been pushing the provincial government for the last five years to come up with more consistent roundabout rules and make it part of the instruction every new and old driver goes through around licence time.

Harris private member’s bill, the Safe Roundabout Act, passed second reading and debate in 2015, but died on the order paper when provincial parliament was prorogued.

It was that close to becoming the law of the land, and since then there has been little movement to align all the rules around roundabouts.

For instance, what rights are granted to pedestrians in roundabouts and what restrictions are there when they try to cross?

What is the proper way to signal your intention of proceeding or moving through a roundabout, and how do you make it part of regular driver behaviour?

The region has put in place its suggestions that tell motorists to signal right when exiting a roundabout, but signal left if they’re planning to drive through. There is no such statute in provincial law that requires this, and if you’re a regular roundabout user you know its still pretty much a free-for-all when it comes to signalling.

This has become such an interesting topic that a local student entered her research on roundabouts to the Canada-wide Science Fair two years in a row and achieved results and awards.

The most important thing the student found is that one driver’s behaviour normalizes other drivers’ behaviours. So if you signal your intention to exit, others will too. That should be research enough to tell the province that it must codify this behaviour for all roundabouts.

Why is that important?

Ask local police who have run into problems in writing tickets and assigning blame for accidents and incidents related to roundabouts. They’ve even had a difficult time laying charges or making them stick in court because of the uncertainty in the law.

There is a vacuum to fill and with no laws in site the wild west attitude will persist in roundabouts and people will remain suspicious of their wide adoption and use.

Kitchener MPPs Daiene Vernile said this is just a political point making on Harris’ part, and that there is direction in the province’s Official Driver’s Handbook to properly navigate roundabouts.

But Harris is right.

This isn’t about the efficacy of roundabouts its about the application of the laws around them. And unless they are spelled out, they leave too much to interpretation.

https://www.kitchenerpost.ca/opinion-story/7483528-time-to-write-rules-for-roundabouts/

Doing Circles In A Roundabout

Roundabouts are the latest traffic trend, particularly in rural areas, but a lot of people don’t know how to use them properly, so here’s a crash course:

1. The cars in the roundabout already have right of way, so if you’re entering the roundabout, you have to yield to traffic already engaged.
2. The left lane of a roundabout is for traffic going straight or left (around) towards an exit. The right lane of a roundabout is for traffic going straight or right (towards the first exit). It’s important to read the signage as you approach the roundabout so you can figure out where your exit will be and therefore which lane will be appropriate as you shouldn’t change lanes once you’re in the roundabout.
3. Roundabouts ALWAYS go counter-clockwise, so the island in the middle is always on your left.
4. The lane of a roundabout is not a good place to stop because you missed your exit! Keep moving and do the loop again. Remember, you have the right of way over vehicles entering the roundabout.

I understand that many Ontarians are not yet used to roundabouts, but remember: it could always be worse:

https://derekwilsonlaw.ca/ontario-traffic-laws-5-things-highway-traffic-act-forgot/