adma
Superstar
*All* of Dubai, or just the parts "for show", so to speak?
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Dubai's Marina and Beach Towers by ZAS
- Thread starter wyliepoon
- Start date
*All* of Dubai, or just the parts "for show", so to speak?
kEiThZ
Superstar
Touche.....
Although, I would argue that they do care a great deal about the development and planning of the city....perhaps, much more so than civic authorities here in Toronto.
Though in Toronto's defence, autocracy is always far more efficient but here in T.O. citizens' inputs are marginally considered.
Archivist
Senior Member
KeithZ, the first thing to note about Dubai (or the UAE) is that there are practically no citizens there. 85% of the country is populated with expats who have no legal route to obtaining citizenship in the country.
Saying our citizens opinions are marginally considered and even drawing a comparison to Dubai could not be more absurd. Our planning regime might not be perfect, but in Dubai a clique of extremely wealthy men make decisions for all. What do you think would happen to a Pakistani labourer who had the audacity (or stupidity) to write a letter complaining about the effect of traffic on his street of a new development?
And the fact that a few people make decisions that are unchallenge-able is clear in the city. It took me 45 minutes to cross Sheik Zayed Road by foot - because their "Bay Street", one of the main financial avenues of the city, is actually an expressway. In a kilometre long distance I found one underground pedestrian passageway, other than that you choice was to walk to an overpass and deal with the traffic to get to the other side. It was unbelievably unpleasant. I am quite certain that I am the first ever white man to attempt to simply cross this street on foot without taking a cab. I've never been in a place that was more poorly planned in my life.
Having said this, they were installing air conditioned bus shelters and an elevated railway system while I was there, and I give them kudos for that. I doubt very much that an actual Emerati will ever use a bus shelter, and it speaks to some consideration on behalf of their guests.
And wylie, I went to the downtown areas you speak of three times, each time thinking that I must have caught them previously in some state of closure that I didn't understand. They were fairly moribund, on the whole, and not that interesting. Though there was an area nearby with some beautifully restored old buildings and a fabulous cafe where I went twice and had the most wonderful food. The area though seems to be off the radar for development so perhaps it will become more attractive as time passes. (It is possible that the first of two photos you posted is from a mall on the edge of the city that was designed like a souk, it certainly appears to be so from my recollections of the mall and of the older Dubai Creek area, but I cannot say for certain).
Saying our citizens opinions are marginally considered and even drawing a comparison to Dubai could not be more absurd. Our planning regime might not be perfect, but in Dubai a clique of extremely wealthy men make decisions for all. What do you think would happen to a Pakistani labourer who had the audacity (or stupidity) to write a letter complaining about the effect of traffic on his street of a new development?
And the fact that a few people make decisions that are unchallenge-able is clear in the city. It took me 45 minutes to cross Sheik Zayed Road by foot - because their "Bay Street", one of the main financial avenues of the city, is actually an expressway. In a kilometre long distance I found one underground pedestrian passageway, other than that you choice was to walk to an overpass and deal with the traffic to get to the other side. It was unbelievably unpleasant. I am quite certain that I am the first ever white man to attempt to simply cross this street on foot without taking a cab. I've never been in a place that was more poorly planned in my life.
Having said this, they were installing air conditioned bus shelters and an elevated railway system while I was there, and I give them kudos for that. I doubt very much that an actual Emerati will ever use a bus shelter, and it speaks to some consideration on behalf of their guests.
And wylie, I went to the downtown areas you speak of three times, each time thinking that I must have caught them previously in some state of closure that I didn't understand. They were fairly moribund, on the whole, and not that interesting. Though there was an area nearby with some beautifully restored old buildings and a fabulous cafe where I went twice and had the most wonderful food. The area though seems to be off the radar for development so perhaps it will become more attractive as time passes. (It is possible that the first of two photos you posted is from a mall on the edge of the city that was designed like a souk, it certainly appears to be so from my recollections of the mall and of the older Dubai Creek area, but I cannot say for certain).
kEiThZ
Superstar
Having been raised there, I am fully aware of what life is like in that country. You are right there are almost no citizens. What do you expect from a place founded by an arab tribe in the middle of the desert? As for having no route to citizenship...well that's a privilege in any country not a right. My dad was there for 17 years and counted some very high ranking individuals as friends and drinking buddies. But he never begrudged his lack of opportunity at attaining citizenship. For right or wrong, the Emiratis have decided that to restrict the doling out of citizenship. Their loss is, in my family's case, Canada's gain.
WRT the rights of the Pakistani labourer. How do you think he would be treated in Pakistan? Applying western concepts of labour and human rights are very difficult in the rest of the world. Said labourer will make more money in 5 years than he could 20 in his village back home. He will work a few years and head back to be the toast of his town back home.... Those who choose to make their life in Dubai usually rise through the corporate ranks eventually and end up migrating to some western country.
Your point on development is well noted. Sheik Zayed road is terribly planned. However, the constants in Dubai are change and a genuine desire for excellence. I guarantee you, they'll be lecturing us about urban planning in about 10 years.....while we're still figuring out how to stop the condo curtain from completely blotting out any sight of the lake.
Archivist
Senior Member
Keithz, I understand that citizenship is a privilege, but I would argue that the fact that there is no route towards citizenship for non-Emiratis fatally flaws the planning regime in the society, given that so many are only there while the getting is good, and few are realistically engaged in the building of the city. My point about the Pakistani making a complaint is not to say that they would be better treated elsewhere, I assume they can make their own decisions, but simply to point out that the political environment does not allow for resident's input into planning. Earlier you critiques Toronto's planning regime, and I find that false and silly when you promote Dubai's.
I do have some admiration for what they are achieving, and knowing how long everything seems to take in Toronto I am envious that they can turn things in a dime.
Your comment about blotting out the view of the lake undermines your arguments, however, given that more recent developments in Dubai (on the outer edges of Jumeirah Beach, starting at the Jumeirah Beach Hotel and continuing west for many kilometres) have completely and utterly privatized the waterfront there. (Notwithstanding the long public beach that exists to that point). This is quite the opposite of what is happening on a much smaller scale in Etobicoke, where previously privatized waterfront is being (painstakingly) made public through gradual and willing sales from the owners to the city. Frankly, I prefer Toronto's approach 10,000 times over to Dubai's, and I think the results of both are plain to see from any exploration of the city.
But perhaps, as you suggest, in ten years they can come to Canada and host a session on urban development. I would call it: "Ensuring that only millionaires can get even within 500 m of your waterfront: The Dubai Experience".
Below, Dubai "waterfront" as it appears to one not staying at the Burj al Arab. Note the gatehouse. Following this is an example of the "Dubai Waterfront" west of the Burj. Walls and gates for kilometres on end, not one store, not one gas station, not one "amenity", nothing, but some nicely tended rows of flowers for the cars to pass by.
I do have some admiration for what they are achieving, and knowing how long everything seems to take in Toronto I am envious that they can turn things in a dime.
Your comment about blotting out the view of the lake undermines your arguments, however, given that more recent developments in Dubai (on the outer edges of Jumeirah Beach, starting at the Jumeirah Beach Hotel and continuing west for many kilometres) have completely and utterly privatized the waterfront there. (Notwithstanding the long public beach that exists to that point). This is quite the opposite of what is happening on a much smaller scale in Etobicoke, where previously privatized waterfront is being (painstakingly) made public through gradual and willing sales from the owners to the city. Frankly, I prefer Toronto's approach 10,000 times over to Dubai's, and I think the results of both are plain to see from any exploration of the city.
But perhaps, as you suggest, in ten years they can come to Canada and host a session on urban development. I would call it: "Ensuring that only millionaires can get even within 500 m of your waterfront: The Dubai Experience".
Below, Dubai "waterfront" as it appears to one not staying at the Burj al Arab. Note the gatehouse. Following this is an example of the "Dubai Waterfront" west of the Burj. Walls and gates for kilometres on end, not one store, not one gas station, not one "amenity", nothing, but some nicely tended rows of flowers for the cars to pass by.
adma
Superstar
Fifty years ago. Brasilia's creators might have claimed likewise.
wyliepoon
Senior Member
^ ... and Shanghai is already lecturing us.
