DRL: Subway or LRT?

[Rainforest]

I agree, Rainforest. I think we're all getting a bit distracted here. The basic facts are that the cost savings of underground LRT vs underground subway are fairly minimal. Subways also offer a much greater capacity upside. That makes it the only sensible choice for the DRL, a route that has immense potential for capacity growth. Other routes, especially feeders to the subway in the suburbs, might be more suited to LRT, where high capacity might never be needed.

DRL should be heavy rail, certainly.

Regarding the underground LRT vs underground subway debate, I think it should be put in the context of an LRT that is partly tunneled and partly runs on-street. For Eglinton, the bulk of saving from choosing LRT versus subway is expected to come from the outer parts, where LRT can run on-street. If the overall saving factor is 2.5 or 3, it is worth the game.

Had that been a fully grade-separate LRT versus a fully grade-separate subway, the saving factor would not be that big. Just how big is debatable, but whether it is 1.2 or 1.7, the case for choosing subway would be a lot stronger.

It's also important to always remember the importance of service speed. Surface LRT is much slower than the subway, and that will make it much less attractive for people switching from their cars or parallel subway routes.

True, an on-street LRT can never be as fast as subway. If the funds were plentiful, we could build more subways just for the sake of speed, even if some of them are substantially below capacity.

The problem though is a huge disconnect between the level of funding needed and the resources available. MetroLinx plan C calls for 90 billion (and ironically, it does not even include DRL north of Bloor). Against that, we have about 3 billion in committed funds (YorkU - VCC subway, plus Yonge singnaling upgrades, plus smaller miscellaneous improvements), and about 10.5 billion in pre-committed (MoveOntario 2020, less the provincial portion of YorkU - VCC subway which is already counted into the first 3 billion). So, we should be cost-consious, rather than assume the "just ask for it, and it will get funded" attitude.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

We need to analyze these lines not just in terms of how much cheaper they may be than subways, but in terms of the actual service upgrade compared to the buses they're replacing...spending $X billion on an LRT line that doesn't significantly improve existing bus service will be an irresponsible waste of money if $Y billion could be spent on a subway line that would offer vastly improved service. LRT on Morningside will be obscenely wasteful, but LRT on Finch West could be really great and worth every penny. The DRL will draw large enough crowds to warrant a subway line no matter how cheap LRT may be.

So, we should be cost-consious, rather than assume the "just ask for it, and it will get funded" attitude.

They funded what was asked for.

 

[Voltz]

We need to analyze these lines not just in terms of how much cheaper they may be than subways, but in terms of the actual service upgrade compared to the buses they're replacing...spending $X billion on an LRT line that doesn't significantly improve existing bus service will be an irresponsible waste of money if $Y billion could be spent on a subway line that would offer vastly improved service. LRT on Morningside will be obscenely wasteful, but LRT on Finch West could be really great and worth every penny. The DRL will draw large enough crowds to warrant a subway line no matter how cheap LRT may be.



They funded what was asked for.

They have not funded much yet other than what was already funded (spadina extension)
they did fund the phase 1 of the young subway extension already

Transit City has NOT been funded or even approved by Metrolinx

The MO 2020 announcement did not give one cent of new funding

 

[Rainforest]

...spending $X billion on an LRT line that doesn't significantly improve existing bus service will be an irresponsible waste of money if $Y billion could be spent on a subway line that would offer vastly improved service.

Well, LRT on ROW will be a singificant improvement over crowded, often crawling mixed-traffic buses. I used to live at Eglinton & Bathurst, and sometimes it could take more than 30 min just to get to Yonge by bus.

No contest that subway would offer an even greater improvement, but ... funding is an issue.

They funded what was asked for.

Yes, but grudgingly; MoveOntario is actually set as a long-term loan rather than a straight funding off the yearly budget. Whether the province will go from 12 billion to 60, or even 30, is a big question mark, and so is whether the federal Conservatives will fund their 1/3 or even a part of it. In fact, it is not guaranteed that the province does not backtrack on the funds already pre-committed, if an economic downturn takes place.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes, a tunnelled LRT should be a big improvement over the Eglinton bus, between Dufferin and Yonge, at least - provided the vehicles don't get bunched up and kill the frequency, which is dependent on the at-grade segments. But no one (I don't mean you) ever brings up things like that...people on the internet tend to support one transit project over another based on random/twistable ridership numbers, or on how cool the line would look on a map. Funding for an Eglinton subway is less of an issue than you're making it out to be - we don't even know how much it would cost (or how much the LRT will end up costing) since the difference between tunnelling the whole thing and running practically at grade or in shallow trenches or elevated is, literally, several billion dollars. Hopefully, Metrolinx will study the corridor to see if spending marginally more now to provide for the future is warranted. The LRT may be sufficient be generations, though, which is perfectly fine...as long as they don't copy and paste the Spadina streetcar along Eglinton.

They have not funded much yet other than what was already funded (spadina extension)
they did fund the phase 1 of the young subway extension already

Transit City has NOT been funded or even approved by Metrolinx

The MO 2020 announcement did not give one cent of new funding

They *will/intend to* fund what was asked for. That's very obviously what I meant. Even if construction starts, it doesn't mean the lines will end up being fully paid for and built (just look at the Eglinton line or poor Warsaw's metro).

 

[Voltz]

I do share your fears that a surface LRT line would be compromised by intersection delays,(especially with the TTC in charge) however I believe that it is possible on the proposed TC routes to operate a line with minimal delays given the much wider intersection spacing, new vehicles with all door loading and new signal technology. I have seen videos of such lines operating elsewhere.

Spadina and St Clair are definitely examples of how not to build a modern LRT line, and I do not believe that what we end up with would be similar.

Eglinton and the DRL are definitely lines where full subways should be evaluated and built if necessary, but whichever technology is chosen should be built for the entire length in one shot and not half assed,

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes, it's certainly possible that the lines will be very well run, but it's equally possible that they won't be...based both on how Transit City has been marketed ("subways are too expensive," "supports Parisian-style Avenues redevelopment," etc.) and how awful service typically is on existing streetcar/LRT lines, "possible" may even be optimistic. Still, there's places in the city where even Spadina streetcar level service would be better than existing bus service - not that the rationale behind Transit City included something as crazy as travel times or the real experiences of transit users.