Downtown-Wide 'Transportation Study' Planned by City

[allabootmatt]

This seems to have been lost in discussion of Kristen Wong-Tam's laudable efforts to revamp Yonge St, but Denzil Minnan-Wong says staff will present in September a "very significant transportation study of the downtown, all the major roads and thoroughfares," with a view to reducing traffic congestion.

I don't want to prejudge the outcome of this since it will be staff-written, and since Minnan-Wong has shown himself to be open, at least in principle, to handing over lanes to non-automotive traffic as the Bike Plan suggests may happen on Richmond. However I can't help but suspect this report will be used as a cudgel to shut down discussion of pedestrian-friendly improvements throughout the core, if not for more dramatic measures like the removal of streetcars and bike lanes.

So, any rumours out there about what the scope of this study or of its likely results?

 

[jje1000]

It will definitely include some sort of traffic light synchronization.

I wouldn't be surprised if it called for the removal of one or two streetcar lines.

As for Yonge, Minnan-Wong has called for improvements for motorists, but I don't know how it'll be done considering that Yonge is pretty much full.

Best-case scenario: Synchronization of streetlights, fixing roads, encouraging alternate transportation.

Worst-case scenario: Removal of streetcar lines, removal of more bike lanes, cancelling of street improvements (i.e. John, Yonge and Dundas), removing street parking for more lanes.

 

[DSC]

Though I am certainly not terribly optimistic that any Plan will call for ways to have fewer cars, I note that this is a "Transportation Study" so it should deal with transit, bikes, pedestrians as well as cars and trucks. In theory it could recommend "transit corridors' or road tolls and suggest (again) that most parking on King between Church and maybe Bathurst be banned so that streetcars and moving cars can move. The bottom line is that we have a limited amount of road space and unless parking is removed it will continue to be jammed most of the day. I doubt the Mayor Ford(s) would like a plan that severely curtailed parking!

Though I can see that keeping the streetcar tracks on Adelaide would be useful to provide additional flexibility, they have not been used between Church and Charlotte for over a decade so getting rid of them (or failing to replace them when the road is redone in 2013/14) would probably not matter too much. Of course this provides no additional road space but being rational is not a prerequisite for being on Council!

 

[allabootmatt]

I am trying to be optimistic wrt streetcars, since the TTC--which is stacked entirely with Fordite true believers--has made no move whatsoever to stop the new LRV order, and indeed seems quite happy to run roughshod over community opposition to its yard facilities. 204 vehicles remain in the Ford-approved capital budget, trackwork continues on large scale, and overhead is even being converted to pantograph. Significant amounts of money have been spent on all this, and I figure if Ford were really planning an attack on the streetcar system it would have happened early this year, when his political capital was greatest.

Still, I put nothing past these guys and am nervous as heck.

 

[JoeParez]

Though I am certainly not terribly optimistic that any Plan will call for ways to have fewer cars, I note that this is a "Transportation Study" so it should deal with transit, bikes, pedestrians as well as cars and trucks. In theory it could recommend "transit corridors' or road tolls and suggest (again) that most parking on King between Church and maybe Bathurst be banned so that streetcars and moving cars can move. The bottom line is that we have a limited amount of road space and unless parking is removed it will continue to be jammed most of the day. I doubt the Mayor Ford(s) would like a plan that severely curtailed parking!

Though I can see that keeping the streetcar tracks on Adelaide would be useful to provide additional flexibility, they have not been used between Church and Charlotte for over a decade so getting rid of them (or failing to replace them when the road is redone in 2013/14) would probably not matter too much. Of course this provides no additional road space but being rational is not a prerequisite for being on Council!

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before here (I'm pretty sure it has, everything is discussed here) -- however, I still don't understand why parking is allowed on major city streets; and if Toronto has ever looked into parking structures to alleviate parking on the street. I saw a few of these in New York and my girlfriend pointed it out to me saying "this is what is needed in Toronto". Get parking off the street and build mixed parking/retail structures. I'm not sure if anyone would be "for" it -- but the concept seems to make sense. I've seen many empty parking lots and abandoned lots that could house a parking structure.

I thought it was a great idea and surely Toronto could sacrifice some residential development for something like this.

Something like this: (though with retail at grade)

 

[jje1000]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before here (I'm pretty sure it has, everything is discussed here) -- however, I still don't understand why parking is allowed on major city streets; and if Toronto has ever looked into parking structures to alleviate parking on the street. I saw a few of these in New York and my girlfriend pointed it out to me saying "this is what is needed in Toronto". Get parking off the street and build mixed parking/retail structures. I'm not sure if anyone would be "for" it -- but the concept seems to make sense. I've seen many empty parking lots and abandoned lots that could house a parking structure.

I thought it was a great idea and surely Toronto could sacrifice some residential development for something like this.

Something like this: (though with retail at grade)

Toronto should definitely invest in several large parking structures, if it can mean that roads can be narrowed for wider sidewalks.

 

[Jonny5]

Toronto should definitely invest in several large parking structures, if it can mean that roads can be narrowed for wider sidewalks.

How much do these cost? When GO builds garages they cost $10,000 a space.

 

[nfitz]

Do we have a shortage of downtown Toronto spaces? We've got some huge structures ... the one facility north of the train tracks, is huge, with entrances off Yonge, Church, and Market, with over 2,000 spots. The main lot at Nathan Phillips Square has over 2,000 spots, and I believe was the largest underground parking lot in the world when it was built.

When that new smaller (250 or so spots) opened at Yonge-Dundas recently, they seemed to have problems filling it.

Do these lots really fill up? Or do people simply want to park on the street.

 

[jje1000]

When that new smaller (250 or so spots) opened at Yonge-Dundas recently, they seemed to have problems filling it.

Do these lots really fill up? Or do people simply want to park on the street.

People definitely want to park on the street, but once street parking is removed, the parking structures will fill up naturally. There are definitely problems with parking structures; but as a solution to street parking, they're worth looking at.

 

[JoeParez]

Do we have a shortage of downtown Toronto spaces? We've got some huge structures ... the one facility north of the train tracks, is huge, with entrances off Yonge, Church, and Market, with over 2,000 spots. The main lot at Nathan Phillips Square has over 2,000 spots, and I believe was the largest underground parking lot in the world when it was built.

When that new smaller (250 or so spots) opened at Yonge-Dundas recently, they seemed to have problems filling it.


Do these lots really fill up? Or do people simply want to park on the street.

Personally if I'm going to Yonge and Dundas, I'm not taking my car; I would take transit and that's what happens most of the time for me when I go downtown. However, in cases where I go to the Esplanade for sure, I use that parking structure all the time. Why would I park on the street or drive in circles to look for a spot when I'm almost guaranteed one in a garage.

For example; the southwest corner of Bathurst and College could easily become a structure (currently a parking lot) -- if street parking is "banned" from about a 1 - 2 km radius of that intersection to allow a flow of traffic, then for sure a parking garage would get used.

 

[JoeParez]

Toronto should definitely invest in several large parking structures, if it can mean that roads can be narrowed for wider sidewalks.

Not only wider sidewalks and a more "pedestrian" feel (ie. parking structures would generally force drivers to walk to their final destinations) I would also think that getting parking off the streets would promote safer and stress free roads simply because you're removing the hassles of having cars parked on a major street!

 

[taal]

Yea I advice we all expect the worst with this report.

Now if I recall Denzil Minnan-Wong is/was very much against removing any lanes on Yonge (I think he was commenting specifically about the suggested Yonge project).

Having said that, other removing one lane (I presume the plan could still go ahead without it ... just amounts to re-doing the stretch) what can this report possibly do with Yonge ? Make it one way ? Traffic light synchronization ? Remove scramble intersection ?

That's about all I can think about that's possible (feasible or even a good idea is a different question) so not to much in the way of damage here.
But on Queen / King / Dundas / College - as others have suggested, I think this is a prefect time for the Ford administration to push the removal of streetcars i.e. this is where they can make there stand, I see no better opportunity. Other then that, again, what else can be done, more one way streets ? Maybe.

I'm surprised they don't hammer the Queens Quay plan but that may just go ahead before they can get their hands on it.


Should be an interesting fall.

 

[nfitz]

People definitely want to park on the street, but once street parking is removed, the parking structures will fill up naturally. There are definitely problems with parking structures; but as a solution to street parking, they're worth looking at.

But do we need more capacity? There seemed to be excess capacity in parking spots in the Yonge-Dundas area recently.

 

[Electrify]

What I would like to see is the installation of 'local traffic only on King and Queen, directing through traffic to use Richmond and Adelaide. While this would not be enforceable, it would hopefully encourage people to use alternatives instead of conflicting with streetcars.

Apparently there once was a plan to convert Yonge and Bay into one way streets, it might be time to revisit such a plan.

Another idea could be to run semi express buses on Richmond and Adelaide, to help move people quicker across downtown while freeing up the streetcar for local trips.

 

[dunkalunk]

I'd personally like to see the extension of Front to the Gardiner and the full conversion of Wellington and Front into one-way streets between Spadina and Church. Something like this. Wellington Street could then reconnect back to Front by Clarence Square. All of Wellington and the part of Front Street around the Gooderham building is already partway there.

And on the subject of public parking structures with street-facing retail, the corner of Front and Spadina would be the perfect place for one, and definitely somewhere you can get away with something covered in excessive amounts of glass.