Downtown Scarborough

[salvador3]

I'm currently shopping for a condo and my first area of preference is NYCC. But seeing as a 1 bd unit in NYCC typically sells for $270K or so, I've started looking at more affordable alternatives.

One area that has attractive condo prices is near Scarborough Town Centre along Borough Drive. I'm just wondering how the neighbourhood and vibe there is? I'm fairly young in my mid twenties but I'm more of a suburban guy than a downtown guy.

One condo that caught my eye there is the Ellipse tower at 36,38 Lee Drive. Their 1 bedroom there is about $200K.

 

[Coltaine79]

Speaking as someone who visits the STC area quite often (due to relatives) and consequently ends up "hanging out" there a lot...

I don't like it. Despite the fact that it's "visually" improved and brought up to a level approaching, say Mississauga City Centre (SQ. 1) - what with all the new Tridel-built condos and all - it can't lose that ghetto vibe that Scarborough has had for going on 30 years now.

Let me be honest - if you're of East Indian descent and perhaps a recent emigre - you might find it comfortable to live amongst many others of the same ethnicity. Because certain ethnicities are over-represented there as opposed to others. And I'm not blaming any particular ethnicity for the crime or "ghetto-ness"; it's more likely due to the sizable low income community which begins just outside the ring of recent condo developments...

People on this forum have complained of Toronto in general having a "run down" look. And in my book, Scarborough takes the cake as the front-runner in that department.

 

[salvador3]

Thanks for your thoughts Coltaine79.

I'm neither east indian or a recent immigrant. I've seen the crowds at STC area and yes most them are rowdy but the same be said for the condo residents themselves? If I live there, I don't think I'll be a mall rat and start hanging out at STC. I'm more concerned about the residential community along Corporate Drive and the condo's near the RT's.

BTW, is the RT going to be cancelled? I heard some years back that they were going to decommission it.

 

[Pro-catastrophe]

I don't think the area around Scarborough Town Centre is run down or crime ridden. Borough Dr. and the residential neighbourhood to the south are actually very nice. The mall is currently undergoing a massive renovation and really, was not that bad to begin with.

The only problem with living in this area is that there isn’t a lot to do within walking distance. It is still very suburban in that you have to use your car for most of your daily activities

The RT is not going to be cancelled. There are funds already earmarked for expansion north into Malvern and talk of building a new station at Brimley Rd.

 

[Coltaine79]

You should quickly do some research on the RT subject, but my understanding is the Scarborough RT will be decommissioned and be replaced by one of the Transit City LRT lines. So that's a "good thing". UNLESS there's a huge "lag time" between the decommissioning and the replacement (like, more than 2 years...)

From what I've seen, the condo residents are unlikely to be "rowdy" - but the ethnic distribution will certainly be slanted hugely in favour of a particular ethnicity. That may or may not be to your taste.

If you're a "single guy" in your mid-20's then you should consider what your leisure activities are, and whether this community "fits in" to the life you want to live. For me, it wouldn't.
For instance, I wouldn't feel comfortable just "walking around" the McCowan/401 neighborhood the same way I'm comfortable walking around the areas near NYCC (Avondale, Empress, etc.)
And basically, that part of Scarborough *is* the suburbs. You're so far away from the downtown core of Toronto that you might as well be in Mississauga.
But you said you're a suburban guy, so I dunno, maybe you'll like it.

Don't forget about resale considerations though! If Scarborough can't shake the "Scarlem" and "Scarberia" connotations after 30 years, it's not going to be any different in 5!
You're highly unlikely to experience any sort of "spike" in property valuations that the lucky folks @ NYCC condos have experienced over the past 5 years.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If you have a car, you're fine in STC as it's a very convenient spot. There is no tangible community to speak of, though...most people live there because the condos are inexpensive, so you'll get everything from new immigrants to empty nest retirees to young professionals like nurses and teachers to UTSC/Centennial students. There's not much around other than the mall and it can be difficult to walk from place to place - McCowan is basically a limited-access highway south of the 401. Albert Campbell Square is dead unless there's a Tamil Tiger rally going on.

I'd say ignore most of what Coltaine79 is saying, except for the part about walking around the area to see if you're comfortable living there and get a good vibe. The northern half of Scarborough, including STC, is anything but run down...it's far too new. Anyone who thinks it is run down either needs to get out and about the city more or is from the 905. Scarborough's real estate doesn't quite follow the same patterns as the trendy, wealthy white neighbourhoods and to a large degree depends on Asians' desire to live in the area...Scarborough home values over the past 25 years or so have been dictated more by what's going on in Hong Kong than what's going on in Parkdale or North Toronto. If anything, home prices in Scarborough could be set to rise over the next decade because they didn't explode in the recent bubble and because the entire borough is becoming a real bargain. It's not like some kind of racial war is going to erupt.

When the SRT closes for renovation/extension, it'll stay closed for 3 years and be replaced by buses - that might work fine and it might be a disaster. Too early to tell. There's other condos in Scarborough, like near Agincourt Mall, and other buildings in random spots. Since there's no real neighbourhood at STC and since the SRT is slated to close for 3 years, you'd basically be buying there to be near the mall - if you're looking for a cheaper alternative to North York Centre you might as well look elsewhere in Scarborough, too, as well as along Don Mills or in Markham.

 

[Eug]

I don't think the area around Scarborough Town Centre is run down or crime ridden. Borough Dr. and the residential neighbourhood to the south are actually very nice. The mall is currently undergoing a massive renovation and really, was not that bad to begin with.

Yeah, the area around there is fine, but devoid of activity. IOW, I'm not sure there is such a thing as "downtown Scarborough". However, the mall really did need the makeover. It wasn't absolutely terrible, but it was looking pretty tired IMO.

The northern half of Scarborough, including STC, is anything but run down...it's far too new. Anyone who thinks it is run down either needs to get out and about the city more or is from the 905.

When I first moved to Toronto I didn't quite understand the anti Scarborough sentiment, because I was a downtowner and the only places in Scarborough I had visited were north of Ellesmere. It's pretty boring up there, but well kept.

The parts I'm not impressed with are areas between Kingston Road and Lawrence. They look run down. I now live south of Kingston Road which is very nice, but the north of Kingston Road run-down-ness bugs me since it means that Kingston Road itself has crappy shopping. Hopefully that will change in the next 15 years now that it has gotten rezoned.

If anything, home prices in Scarborough could be set to rise over the next decade because they didn't explode in the recent bubble and because the entire borough is becoming a real bargain. It's not like some kind of racial war is going to erupt.

IIRC, north Scarborough has been getting some significant price increases, along with the rest of Toronto. Same goes for Scarborough Bluffs. I'm not so sure about the area surrounding Eglinton though. However, the point to remember is that regions of Scarborough were cheaper to begin with, so any price increases, even if comparable percentage-wise, might not be as mindblowing as some of the more expensive areas.

The region surround Eglinton has the most potential for price increases in some ways because it's very cheap now, but I'm not optimistic. If the Eglinton X-town gets cancelled, then there's not much incentive to put more money in there IMO. What I suspect is that north Scarborough will continue to be solidly middle class, Kingston Road will get more money, and the developments in the St. Clair region will improve that area as well.

 

[adma]

When I first moved to Toronto I didn't quite understand the anti Scarborough sentiment, because I was a downtowner and the only places in Scarborough I had visited were north of Ellesmere. It's pretty boring up there, but well kept.

How long ago was that? I suspect that the character's changed due to the galloping Asianization or non-Anglization of the population; earlier Asianizing generations leapfrogging into Markham and Richmond Hill; phenomena such as high-rise brothels and grow-ops...and also, technically in North Scarborough through further east, the bad rep that Malvern's earned...

 

[Eug]

How long ago was that? I suspect that the character's changed due to the galloping Asianization or non-Anglization of the population;

Nothing wrong with that, as it's still very clean and well-kept, but just more Asian, with much better Chinese restaurants than before.

I moved to Toronto in the early 90s. By then it was already getting quite Asian anyway.

phenomena such as high-rise brothels and grow-ops...

Meh. Some of the downtown high-rise condo buildings were mecca for strip club dancers, and grow ops are everywhere.

and also, technically in North Scarborough through further east, the bad rep that Malvern's earned...

Yeah, I was specifically ignoring Malvern. Malvern's bad rep was highlighted on the Flashpoint TV show BTW.

 

[northstar]

If looking at Scarborough, I'd look for the area around Kennedy & Sheppard to improve.
A couple of things are starting to happen in that area.

Pluses for that area which will result in homes holding their value well include:
- the new Sheppard LRT
- Agincourt GO station (already in place)
- easy access to the 401
- north of Sheppard, new development like the recent Tridel building
- south of Sheppard, new development like Solaris Metrogate
- moneyed households in surrounding neighbourhoods
- moneyed households in "old Agincourt"
- new businesses opening on Sheppard to cater to new households
- Agincourt Mall renovation (haven't heard anything, but it's ripe for a reno)

Looking at this part of town, it seems underpriced compared to other suburban areas with similar demographics and housing stock.

 

[salvador3]

So I was able to visit a bunch of condos in the STC area and it was pretty much a mixed bag.

I went to some condos along Lee Centre Drive and I was horrified at a couple of condos that I went to. 11 and 18 Lee Centre condos were pretty scary to go into. During my short visit I experienced the following:

- Screaming heard from the elevator when I was going up
- Smelled like there was a dead rat in one of the elevators, the hallway smell was pretty bad too it had a strong curry smell (not faint, STRONG)
- There was a warning letter posted in the elevator warning people of damage coming from adjacent units (ie leaks, fire hazard, etc)
- The carpet on the hallways was torn and I also noticed there was litter (pieces of paper) lying by the door on a couple of units

So before I actually got into the condo units for those buildings I think I had already made up my mind that I was not going to be living there. The condos themselves that I went to had horrible layouts for the 1+1 and one of them had was painted yellow and had tacky wall paper. It also wasn't tidy or well kept.

38 Lee Centre was much better but seeing how the neighbouring condos are over there, I'm not sure I want to live in that pocket in the STC area.

A much better area close to STC is the borough drive area just south of STC. I got to see 60 and 70 Town Centre condos and I liked what I saw there for the price.

 

[lead82]

You have discovered the reason why condos in Scarborough are cheaper than in NYCC. This is generally a low income area of the city, which doesn't really have much going for it in terms of improvements over the next few years. Sure the mall is getting a makeover, but the RT line will probably be out of commission for 3-5 years during reconstruction (assuming that is not one of the projects being delayed/cancelled by the provincial transit cut).

Something to keep in mind. NYCC is booming with new condos on every block, plus it's a much safer area of the city with a much better pedestrian environment.

 

[adma]

You have discovered the reason why condos in Scarborough are cheaper than in NYCC. This is generally a low income area of the city, which doesn't really have much going for it in terms of improvements over the next few years.

Although Lee Centre is relatively new and isolated from the "low income" parts, so for things to slide this far, this fast, is noteworthy. (When zones like Cityplace are knocked as a "next St James Town", keep in mind that it's the likes of Lee Centre that're more likely to meet that future fate.)

 

[junctionist]

You have discovered the reason why condos in Scarborough are cheaper than in NYCC. This is generally a low income area of the city, which doesn't really have much going for it in terms of improvements over the next few years. Sure the mall is getting a makeover, but the RT line will probably be out of commission for 3-5 years during reconstruction (assuming that is not one of the projects being delayed/cancelled by the provincial transit cut).

Something to keep in mind. NYCC is booming with new condos on every block, plus it's a much safer area of the city with a much better pedestrian environment.

I don't live anywhere near Scarborough, but sounds like you're just perpetuating the stereotype of Scarborough as poor and more dangerous. Is Scarborough centre really that low income when it's mostly comprised of condo towers? Aren't there many middle class subdivisions nearby? NYCC is very safe, but Scarborough centre isn't dramatically worse.

How can a completely revamped and extended transit line be a bad thing? It's short term pain for long term gain, and a real estate purchase is a long term investment.

It's a worse area than NYCC and lower priced more for its mediocrity. Its RT is no subway, it doesn't have the prestige of being centred on Yonge, the pedestrian environment is far worse, and the shopping and culture is worse. Part of it though is just the worse reputation of Scarborough brought by years of media crime coverage simply saying that a crime happened "in Scarborough" rather than the specific intersection.

 

[Eug]

That area is not dangerous in the least. It's just completely boring.

There are some parts of Scarborough that are quite sketchy, but that's not one of them. And of course, sketchy areas exist all over Toronto.