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Does Toronto look to North America or elsewhere for inspiration for transit/infrastructure?

wild goose chase

wild goose chase

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I notice a lot of people in Toronto who are into urbanism seem to want it to be more like European or Asian cities like Paris, London, Tokyo, Hong Kong, and look to them as inspiration rather than to other North American cities (like Chicago, LA, DC etc.)? Is this practical? Is this a reflection of many Torontonians having familiarity with these Old World dense cities (perhaps because of our recent immigration history resulting in people who have experienced such cities firsthand prior to moving here)?

I notice in the US, when cities are discussed, mostly its between cities within the same country treating each other as comparisons/ideals/models (eg. Chicago trying to be like New York etc), but perhaps Toronto is more cosmopolitan in what standards it wants to look up to.

Toronto is getting pretty dense for a North American city and things like the new (or I suppose newest, since I feel calling something from the 2000s new isn't quite appropriate) Sheppard subway line have produced a relative abundance of transit-oriented growth, but I think at the end of the day of course we are far closer to other North American cities in terms of density and transit usage than we are to any city like London or Hong Kong, and it seems unlikely to change in the near future, barring some radical plans and acceptance/demand from people for the lifestyle.

What do you think? Despite Toronto's impressive growth in density, in terms of future outlook, do you think that trying to model ourselves after denser Old World cities is impractical?
 
Torontonians tend to look outside of North America. I say for two major reasons:

1. Culturally, at least when looking through the lens of transpiration patterns, Torontonians and other Canadian major large cities are closer to European cities than American cities. For example, Toronto's modal share is far closer to that of a typical European city than it is to any American city. Like Europeans, Torontonians tend to want to live, work and play in the core of the city, whereas for the most part, Americans flee their cities after the work day concludes. Canadian cities never developed much of a "car culture", whereas that mindset is dominant in the United States. America suffered from white flight, while Toronto suffered it to a much smaller degree, if at all. In Toronto public transit is viewed as perfectly good transportation for the common-person and upper-middle class, while in the United States is stigmatized as being for the poor or racial minorities. Canadians are supportive of government-funded services, while Americans are more hostile.

2. Public transit infrastructure in North America generally is sub par. Toronto is one of the better cities in this regard. Off the top of my head the only other cities in North America similar to Toronto that we might be able to look to on a broad scale for inspiration are Montreal, Vancouver, New York and Boston, and still public transit in those cities is nothing special compared to their European counterparts. Also consider that urban planning in general in American cities has been a disaster.
 
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Toronto and Canada as a whole looks to the US for inspiration on many things including the way the city is built, transit, infrastructure everything. Everything from the way the traffic lights to wayfinding, signage to even the signs on our highways looks like typical America. Our highways, roads, almost everything to the way our suburbs look. When I walk around Toronto it doesn't remind me of Europe or Asia. Canadians as a whole measures themselves up to Americans, as long as they can compete with Americans or even surpass them they are happy. The rest of the world is irrelevant to them. Even take a look at our healthcare system. As long as we are led to believe that our system is better than Americans, that's all the matters. I mean forget about the rest of the countries, it's all about being better than the US.
 
Adjei said:
Toronto and Canada as a whole looks to the US for inspiration on many things including the way the city is built, transit, infrastructure everything. Everything from the way the traffic lights to wayfinding, signage to even the signs on our highways looks like typical America. Our highways, roads, almost everything to the way our suburbs look
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Those things you mention are incredibly superficial. While those things might visually look like things in the United States, Canadian cities don't act very much like American cities. Outside of NYC, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, the attitude towards cities is completely different in the United States than it is in Canada.
 
Adjei said:
As long as we are led to believe that our system is better than Americans, that's all the matters. I mean forget about the rest of the countries, it's all about being better than the US.
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Umm, it's not very often that I hear people in this city say that they wish it were more like American cities. My experience is congruent with @wild goose chase's. Typically I hear desires to emulate Europe and Asia.
 
How are they are superficial. They are all elements which make up a city. Walking around Toronto and the GTA and saying it looks like Europe or Asia or is even inspired by it is laughable at best. Toronto looks nothing like it. Walk around the sprawling suburbs like Brampton and Vaughan, where in Europe do you find those types of suburbs? I sure find similar suburbs when I'm in the US. Even downtown Toronto doesn't look like Europe. The built form is straight outta of North America. The only parts of Canada which even has some resemblance to Europe is parts of Montreal.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Umm, it's not very often that I hear people in this city say that they wish it were more like American cities. My experience is congruent with @wild goose chase's. Typically I hear desires to emulate Europe and Asia.
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There are comparisons to Americans all the time. Maybe you chose not to see it. I've seen someone on this forum try and justify Toronto's terrible public realm because they said at least it's better than Detroit and Cleveland. There's a thread on this forum talking about Hamilton being Canada's Brooklyn. There's another thread on this forum asking when Toronto will surpass Chicago in skyscrapers? There is also another thread comparing Toronto to Chicago. Where are all the threads comparing Toronto to places in Europe and Asia? Open your eyes..
 
Adjei said:
How are they are superficial. They are all elements which make up a city. Walking around Toronto and the GTA and saying it looks like Europe or Asia or is even inspired by it is laughable at best. Toronto looks nothing like it. Walk around the sprawling suburbs like Brampton and Vaughan, where in Europe do you find those types of suburbs? I sure find similar suburbs when I'm in the US. Even downtown Toronto doesn't look like Europe. The built form is straight outta of North America. The only parts of Canada which even has some resemblance to Europe is parts of Montreal.
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we have to look beyond visual appearances as well.

Lets talk about commute patterns. Atlanta is a fairly typical American city. Outside of work hours their downtown core empties out, whereas here in Toronto downtown is a destination for everyone in the region 24/7.

Look at the public transit modal share. Here is a chart comparing cities over 1,000,000 inhabitants. The numbers really do speak for themselves.

Here are the 20 highest modal shares. Only 4 of the 20 are American cities. The other 16 are various European and Asian cities. Toronto is lumped in with these cities.

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Here are the bottom 20. 8 of the 10 lowest modal shares are in the United States. And only 3 of 20 are European or Asian:
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Now guess where Toronto is on these charts. Hint: Not lumped in with the American cities at the bottom of the charts.

With numbers like this, it really isn't a mystery why Torontonians would align themselves more with Europe and Asia with regards to transportation infrastructure.
 
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The thread opener was talking about who Toronto takes inspiration from so yes we have to look at visual appearance.

As for the comparison to Atlanta, I don't see the point. For every Atlanta, you have a New York. The thing about the US is that it is a diverse place. You have places like New York, San Francisco, Chicago, etc. You think all Canadian cities have good transit?

If Toronto was looking to Europe and Asia for inspiration, we wouldn't be talking about implementing an electrified rail system like GO RER in 2015. It would have been done ages ago. European cities have been building transit lines like the S-bahn and RER in Paris for ages while Toronto has been running a commuter rail line like GO Transit with diesel locomotives. Architecturally we are nothing like Europe or Asia, built form we are nothing alike, transit we are nothing alike, public realm we are nothing alike. Where is all the inspiration.

Look at all the news stories in the media when Toronto past Chicago in population. There is a 67 page thread on this forum comparing Toronto to Chicago. Why isn't there a 67 page thread comparing Toronto to Barcelona, Amsterdam, or Seoul?

It is what it is.
 
Okay what is the point of bringing that up...

I stated that the US is a big place, for every Atlanta you have New York, where did I say every city in the US is like New York..

Trying to make Canada seem like some transit paradise is a joke..Transit wise Canada is no different from the US...

Where is the rapid transit in Quebec City, Winnipeg? Ottawa is just getting around to building LRT, if it was Europe they would have had one ages ago..North America overall is a joke, trying to equate Toronto and Canada as being on the level of Europe is a joke and is laughable..Have you been to Europe, lol..

Barcelona which is smaller than Toronto has a transit system which makes Toronto look like a joke..

Again if Toronto is inspired by Europe and Asia..

Is it in terms of architecture? Nope
Built form? Nope
Transit? Nope
Public spaces? Nope
Parks? Nope

Where is all the European and Asian inspiration? It sure isn't showing the inspiration Toronto looks like typical North America...
 
Your post is all over the place. I'm not even going to bother going to respond to them individually, as that would take the conversation in a hundred different directions (public parks and architecture literally have nothing to do with public transit).

Anyways my point is that Toronto doesn't look to the United States for influence on how to build good public transit, because there simply aren't very many good examples of public transit in a city of similar scale to Toronto in that country. It's tough to compile a list of more than 5 American cities decent transit systems that operate at a reasonably large scale. NYC, Boston, Chicago and San Fransisco are all that come to mind. I'm not intimately familiar with transit operations in those cities, but from what I've seen none of the operations in those cities impress me.

Compare this to Europe and Asia, where there are hoards of cities with fantastic transit.

Why the heck would Torontonians look to emulate cities with sub par transit, when we could look to the best?
 
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Adjei said:
Where is the rapid transit in Quebec City, Winnipeg? Ottawa is just getting around to building LRT, if it was Europe they would have had one ages ago..North America overall is a joke, trying to equate Toronto and Canada as being on the level of Europe is a joke and is laughable..Have you been to Europe, lol..
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You just love putting words in people's mouths, don't you?

I never equated transit in transit in Toronto to cities in Europe. I said Torontonian attitudes to transit and transit usage are more similar to Europe than typical US cities. If you're incapable of seeing that distinction, then there isn't much point in having a debate with you.
 
My post is all the over place? Read what the thread opener posted. He said inspiration in terms of transit, density, etc. If Toronto is inspired by Europe for density and transit where is the evidence? Which elements of Toronto's transit system resemble European or Asian cities?

If Toronto doesn't look to US, it sure isn't looking to Europe and Asia like you want us to be. How many European or Asian cities have something a commuter rail line which only runs trains in the morning and evenings like GO Transit? I can point to many transit systems in the US just like GO Transit.

If those American cities have transit systems have transit systems that don't impress, I'm sure you impressed by the joke of transit systems we have here in Canada? Which Canadian city has a good transit system? There are smaller cities in Europe and Asia which put the transit systems here to shame.

Transit wise Canada and Toronto is on the level of the US...

If Toronto is looking to the best for transit, I sure am not seeing it..
 
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