Does Construction Take Too Long to Complete in This City?

[howl]

From my point of view there are two reasons why public projects take so long to get built in Toronto compared to places like China:

1. The planning and design process has a huge public consultation component which means the decision makers (e.g. the politicians) get very nervous about approving anything. The waffle and flip-flop based on what a handful on NIMBY constituents tell them or what the latest opinion polls are telling them. Even after they've agreed to something they change their mind and the whole process starts over again. This is a result of living in a true democracy. If we want things to get approved and designed faster we need to trust the engineers and planners which would create more of a technocracy.

2. Ever since the mid-1980 Reaganomics era governments have been about saving taxpayer money, not about investing in the future. Public projects are built for budget prices and the only way to do that is to spread out the construction period. The first thing to go in a public project is often the contingency fund. If more money was invested into the project you could take the risk of starting one component even when a component that part is dependent on is not complete, because you have a large contingency fund to fix it if there is a problem. With no contingency fund you can't take those risks so every stage must be complete before the next stage can start.

 

[nfitz]

From my point of view there are two reasons why public projects take so long to get built in Toronto compared to places like China:

Don't forget H&S regulations. After that worker was killed on the Spadina subway extension work near York University station, the Ministry of Labour shut down that work site for months. How long would the government ban work in countries like China?

 

[ksun]

Don't forget H&S regulations. After that worker was killed on the Spadina subway extension work near York University station, the Ministry of Labour shut down that work site for months. How long would the government ban work in countries like China?

shutting down work for months is not necessarily a good thing. It depends on what is done during the months. It is not like the longer it takes, the more responsibility the government is. Work is suspended because an active investigation is conducted and proper safety measures are taken, or it is simply due to the bureaucratic procedure. How many days during those months have there been actual progress in safety improvement? Is it more to show to the public "we are taking safety matters seriously since site is shut down", or real improvement is made?

Let me give an example. Following a terrorist attack like 911, usually there is massive disruption of normal functions of the city/country. Flights are suspended. Stock markets suspended. All the panic reactions followed, but what exactly does it achieve other than to say "the government is doing something" to comfort the scared public? A terrorist group doesn't engage two massive attacks in the same fashion all these panic measures are supposed to protect against - the next flight on Sept 12, 2001 is as safe as any random flights prior to the 911 (I myself would not hesitate for a second to board a plane to NYC on Sept 12, 2001). Flights and work are suspended only because the authorities need to show to the public "they are doing something", rather than actually achieving the tangible goal of making anything safer/better.

Is there any evidence showing taking a plane in the US is any safer now than prior to 2001? No. All the panic and work suspension didn't achieve anything other than the authorities could say they took all sort of measures in case there is an investigation.

Ministry of Labour might have shut down the site for months, yet I seriously doubt work afterwards at the project is any safer than before the accident. Accidents happen. Safety measures are necessary but it depends on how they are executed as well as a lot of individual common sense. The most perfect safety policies can't prevent a reckless worker from doing something violating policies and putting his or others' life in danger. So the argument that several months of work shutdown somehow shows superior safety probably won't hold. It probably sounds comforting, but in reality it usually achieves very little in actual safety improvement.

 

[salsa]

Is there any evidence showing taking a plane in the US is any safer now than prior to 2001? No. All the panic and work suspension didn't achieve anything other than the authorities could say they took all sort of measures in case there is an investigation.

For one, cockpits now must be locked throughout the flight, and pocket knives which were used for the hijacking are banned. That's not an improvement?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

shutting down work for months is not necessarily a good thing. It depends on what is done during the months. It is not like the longer it takes, the more responsibility the government is. Work is suspended because an active investigation is conducted and proper safety measures are taken, or it is simply due to the bureaucratic procedure. How many days during those months have there been actual progress in safety improvement? Is it more to show to the public "we are taking safety matters seriously since site is shut down", or real improvement is made?

Let me give an example. Following a terrorist attack like 911, usually there is massive disruption of normal functions of the city/country. Flights are suspended. Stock markets suspended. All the panic reactions followed, but what exactly does it achieve other than to say "the government is doing something" to comfort the scared public? A terrorist group doesn't engage two massive attacks in the same fashion all these panic measures are supposed to protect against - the next flight on Sept 12, 2001 is as safe as any random flights prior to the 911 (I myself would not hesitate for a second to board a plane to NYC on Sept 12, 2001). Flights and work are suspended only because the authorities need to show to the public "they are doing something", rather than actually achieving the tangible goal of making anything safer/better.

Hindsight is 20/20. Nobody knew if or when the next attack would happen then. Disrupting services, rather than risking lives, was the right decision.

 

[hawc]

People joke that Toronto has two seasons, winter and construction. But can't most construction be done year round?

 

[drum118]

People joke that Toronto has two seasons, winter and construction. But can't most construction be done year round?

Yes and no depending on the work.

Concrete for Sidewalk and road stops in late Dec or when the first real frost hits and starts backup in the spring.

Harder to dig when frost in the ground and will take longer to do.

The amount of work that gets done during the day falls during the winter months, but nothing stopping the work other than cost and snow on the ground.

 

[Palma]

For one, cockpits now must be locked throughout the flight, and pocket knives which were used for the hijacking are banned. That's not an improvement?

Ya I guess the fact you can't bring any toiletries on-board has made it safer? It has brought about inconvenience. You cannot even bring a water bottle through with water inside. Its crazy. But the perception is to give the public something is being done

 

[hawc]

ksun stop trying to take this thread off topic. The initial question has nothing to do with 9/11. Continue this and you'll be reported to a moderator.

 

[hawc]

Yes and no depending on the work. Concrete for Sidewalk and road stops in late Dec or when the first real frost hits and starts backup in the spring.

Interesting. I was wondering when paving stopped for the year. Thanks drum.

 

[drum118]

Interesting. I was wondering when paving stopped for the year. Thanks drum.

You can pave all year round, but what you put down that not temporary and below x degree will have to be replace in the spring or later on.

There is an extra cost doing the work in the winter months.

Various trades or some of them take their holidays during the winter months.

 

[ksun]

You can pave all year round, but what you put down that not temporary and below x degree will have to be replace in the spring or later on.

There is an extra cost doing the work in the winter months.

Various trades or some of them take their holidays during the winter months.

winter holidays, which is between Dec 20 to early Jan, or "winter months" - which in the Canadian context, can mean 4-5 months of a year?

And what kind of pavement can't even make through one winter? I have trouble understanding it.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

You can pave all year round, but what you put down that not temporary and below x degree will have to be replace in the spring or later on.

There is an extra cost doing the work in the winter months.

Various trades or some of them take their holidays during the winter months.

In addition to Drum's comment - very few asphalt plants remain open for the winter (in Toronto there are only a couple that come to mind). Typically depends on the weather and how strong the demand is - we had a very late start to the construction season this year, so we may find plants stay open a little later (i.e. end of Dec). So not only do you have to deal with weather issues (shouldn't typically pave on frozen sub-grades) but there are also supply and cost issues. It isn't generally a good practice to do much paving through the winter - even concrete work should be avoided (unless you have heated enclosures).

 

[drum118]

winter holidays, which is between Dec 20 to early Jan, or "winter months" - which in the Canadian context, can mean 4-5 months of a year?

And what kind of pavement can't even make through one winter? I have trouble understanding it.

You need to go to construction school to learn what can and can't be done during the winter months. Talk to the various trades why they take months holidays during the winter months.

There are cost that can't be throw away like you want and someone has to pay for it if you do it.

Some people in the union field are lay off during the winter months and they will take longer holidays. This also applies to people who are on the payroll. Some of the companies wants to keep these key personnel and willing to let them do it since there will no real need for them at the time.

Do some reading why pavement fall apart very quickly and you will get your answer very quick.

 

[silvercity]

You need to go to construction school to learn what can and can't be done during the winter months. Talk to the various trades why they take months holidays during the winter months.

There are cost that can't be throw away like you want and someone has to pay for it if you do it.

Some people in the union field are lay off during the winter months and they will take longer holidays. This also applies to people who are on the payroll. Some of the companies wants to keep these key personnel and willing to let them do it since there will no real need for them at the time.

Do some reading why pavement fall apart very quickly and you will get your answer very quick.

True. A lot of concrete work also halts in northern China (including Beijing) during winter months where temperatures can dip below -10C. Let's not focus on construction details. Even if construction completely halts during winter, that's only like 3 months out of a year. Extending construction by 25% doesn't drag a project to a decade... Construction is not that slow.. it is everything leading to the construction that is really painfully slow...