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Do most Chinese-Canadians in Toronto speak Cantonese or Mandarin?

wild goose chase said:
You rarely hear about these other Chinese languages in Canada or the US it seems. I don't think I've ever heard the Wu language or would know what it sounds like, though I can tell that Mandarin sounds very different from Cantonese. The only Chinese-origin languages I've really heard about and heard spoken in real life are Mandarin, Cantonese and Taiwanese.

I also hear that non-Mandarin languages in China are on the decline, as Mandarin replaces all the other tongues as a unifying language the way English did with Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Welsh etc. or the way Parisian French replaced languages like Occitan, Alsatian, Breton etc. Linguistic diversity on a whole worldwide seems on the decline. But perhaps there are a lot of people still speaking the diverse Chinese languages because they are large populations in their home areas, even if they don't emigrate overseas to places like Toronto.

Do people speaking these local Chinese languages feel strongly about keeping them, or are they more eager to switch to Mandarin or English? I've heard that in some parts of India such as the southern parts, people strongly resent Hindi being imposed and would rather speak languages like Tamil or Bengali, or even just English plus their local language.
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By Taiwanese do you mean Hokkien or the Taiwanese variant of Mandarin?

Mandarin replaces all the other tongues as a unifying language the way English did with Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Welsh etc. or the way Parisian French replaced languages like Occitan, Alsatian, Breton etc.

I'd be careful with those kinds of comparisons; Welsh is actually in a pretty strong position in terms of the number of speakers and the use of some regional languages in France is being encouraged after decades of being erased/suppressed.
 
the lemur said:
By Taiwanese do you mean Hokkien or the Taiwanese variant of Mandarin?

Mandarin replaces all the other tongues as a unifying language the way English did with Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Welsh etc. or the way Parisian French replaced languages like Occitan, Alsatian, Breton etc.

I'd be careful with those kinds of comparisons; Welsh is actually in a pretty strong position in terms of the number of speakers and the use of some regional languages in France is being encouraged after decades of being erased/suppressed.
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I know Mandarin is spoken in Taiwan, but I didn't realize people called Mandarin "Taiwanese" at all, I just assumed it meant the language that arrived to Taiwan originating from southern China.

Regarding the comparison, I guess I wasn't thinking as far as say, Welsh or Wu being completely replaced so it's completely gone (since these languages are still by far, not close to the situation that say, many aboriginal languages around the world that are literally only spoken by a few older people and will be so extinct in a few years) but just an overall decline in its importance and use so that even in its own place of origin, the unifying tongue still is the main first language, used for public or business reasons, and the regional language is only a minority component, retained by a small part of the population, especially older, rural, people, for heritage or personal use. It's cool to see that there are revivals of these local tongues though. Usually though for revivals, it's tough to get young people speaking it natively again (for example, I hear people say they learn Irish in school the way many English-speaking Torontonians take French class but don't use it much outside the classroom).

When you meet an Irish or Welsh person, you still assume that by default, they speak English first (I think there are hardly any people who either speak Celtic languages first and English as ESL, or even monolingual speakers of Celtic languages -- I've only seen them in old documentaries or videos). I don't know about China, but I was wondering if the situation with the regional languages vs. Mandarin there was more similar to say Irish Gaelic and English in Ireland or is it more similar to say French vs. English in Quebec?

It seems like some countries the unification is so complete that one language is still the default or associated with just that one country, even if minority languages persist (meet a French person, and by default you think of speaking one language to them, French, same with Spain, you assume they speak Spanish) while in others not so much (when you meet an Indian person, by default you don't always assume by speaking one language like Hindi they'll understand you as they could speak Bengali, Punjabi, Tamil etc.). I'm guessing the situation in Chinese is in between something like France and something like India?
 
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wild goose chase said:
I know Mandarin is spoken in Taiwan, but I didn't realize people called Mandarin "Taiwanese" at all, I just assumed it meant the language that arrived to Taiwan originating from southern China.

It seems like some countries the unification is so complete that one language is still the default or associated with just that one country, even if minority languages persist (meet a French person, and by default you think of speaking one language to them, French, same with Spain, you assume they speak Spanish) while in others not so much (when you meet an Indian person, by default you don't always assume by speaking one language like Hindi they'll understand you as they could speak Bengali, Punjabi, Tamil etc.). I'm guessing the situation in Chinese is in between something like France and something like India?
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I'm not an expert on Taiwan at all but it seems a little confusing to refer to Taiwanese Mandarin as just 'Taiwanese'; even though the island's version of Mandarin has been the official language since the founding of the republic, there's still a good chance you might meet a Taiwanese person whose native/ancestral language is not Mandarin or, less probably, one of the aboriginal languages that have a better claim on the name 'Taiwanese'.

Most people in Wales who speak Welsh are at least as proficient in English and the country seems to do a good job of teaching the language in school and using both languages officially. But people's abilities vary, of course.

Here's the singer Duffy:


Here's an interview with singer Cerys Matthews (formerly of the band Catatonia), whose accent and vocabulary veer towards English.


It's much less common for people in Ireland to have anywhere near that level of fluency, except perhaps in the west:

 
Nice to see Welsh doing well, despite the fact that compared to two other Celtic languages, Irish and Scottish Gaelic, we seem to hear about it and see it less often celebrated, in terms of cultural heritage, on this side of the Atlantic. It seems like the Welsh didn't emigrate in as large numbers on this continent?

I know that Patagonia way down in South America received Welsh settlers though.
 
wild goose chase said:
Nice to see Welsh doing well, despite the fact that compared to two other Celtic languages, Irish and Scottish Gaelic, we seem to hear about it and see it less often celebrated, in terms of cultural heritage, on this side of the Atlantic. It seems like the Welsh didn't emigrate in as large numbers on this continent?

I know that Patagonia way down in South America received Welsh settlers though.
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There's a Canadian connection to the Welsh settlement in Patagonia: some of the later arrivals were unable to get land and decided to try their luck in establishing a Welsh colony in Saltcoats, Sask.

There were various settlements or attempts at settlements in the US, notably in Pennsylvania (Bryn Mawr, Gwynedd, Bala Cynwyd). Canada didn't see many Welsh newcomers until the early 20th century, peaking in the early years of this first decade but also seeing significant numbers after WW1 and WW2. It was never on the scale of Irish or Scottish emigration, which occurred much earlier and was precipitated by events such as the potato famine and the land clearances.

It's also impossible to get accurate numbers for Welsh emigrants to Canada because they were recorded as 'English' in early censuses and also often on arrival as well, because they tended to leave from ports in England and/or had been working in English cities with large Welsh populations.

Still, there are traces of Wales in Toronto if you really look for them. The old wards of the city were named for the patron saints of the United Kingdom, so there was a St David's ward - now where Regent Park is, more or less - and there is still a St David Street there.

There is a St David/Dewi Sant Welsh United Church in the Hogg's Hollow area that still has services in Welsh (once a month, I think): https://goo.gl/maps/ifRej2tK3fD2

William Dummer Powell, a Loyalist judge and politician of Welsh-American descent, built a home on what is now Orde St in the 19th century, naming it Caer Howell - caer meaning castle or fortress and Howell being the origin of the anglicised Welsh name Powell (ap Howel - 'son of Howel').

pictures-r-3626.jpg


Finally, there are a few place names in Ontario associated with Wales: Bala, Carnarvon, Cardiff and of course the neighbourhood of Swansea.
 
Bruno Republic said:
The difference between "dialect" and "language" is loaded with all sorts of political and social implications, which is why you'll find cases where what are considered different "languages" have only minor variations in grammar, pronunciation, and spelling, while in other cases you'll have very different "dialects" which are not mutually comprehensible at all, but considered the same "language". Chinese and Arabic are examples which effectively aren't one specific language, but a language family: groups of languages descended from the same original classical language and considered "dialects", but in practice are very different from each other. To give it a European context: Portuguese and Romanian both originated from Latin, but we wouldn't think of them as dialects of the same language. But you will find differences as great as between those two languages or more in the various Chinese "dialects".

One thing which helps Chinese stay a bit more unified is the written language, but even then, there are differences between dialects, plus the fact that some regions (Taiwan and Hong Kong, for example) still use "traditional" characters, while the mainland and Singapore switched to a "simplified" system developed in the 20th century.
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Language or dialects? This has been a heated discussion.

"Language" might be a word that is too "big". The "Chinese" is a language, while either "Mandarin" or "Cantonese" should be dialects. But I understand there are too many debates over the status of Cantonese, and the "dialect" might be a term of some sort of "degradation" to the ears of certain Cantonese speaking communities.

Yes, variant - this is the perfect term!

I've read many discussions about the status of the Cantonese and understand that difference between a "language" and a "dialect". I am from Sichuan so my native tongue should be "Sichuanese", which I won't hesitate a second to refer to as a "dialect" - it's easily mutual-intelligible with Mandarin as long as we don't purposely use local slangs.

Cantonese is apparently a different situation. Most mandarin speakers would be deaf to Cantonese speeches, and I would assume the vice versa should there not be so many Mandarin TV programs made available to Cantonese speaking communities these years - they are NOT mutual-intelligible by pronunciation, despite that the writting forms are the same/similar. But I heard a story that Cantonese was actually the original ancient Chinese language, replaced by the Mandarin in a later stage. Not sure if this proves true or not...

Putting the political points aside, I think "language variant" would just be perfect for both the Mandarin and Cantonese. Will you agree on that?
 
Johnny Au said:
Cantonese is different from Mandarin as French is different from Spanish. It would be absurd to consider French and Spanish dialects of Latin.
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Except Cantonese and Mandarin uses the same written language (traditional vs simplified differences aside). I don't know if it's worth arguing whether it's a dialect or variant of a language though.

I think with the explosion in wealth and influence of mainland China, Mandarin is the more common Chinese, and with more mainland migrants to Canada, I'd say Mandarin is more predominant. I'm also seeing Cantonese celebs of the 80's and 90's now speaking Mandarin in doing mainland TV shows.
 
Mandarin is definitely outstripping Cantonese for the diaspora. Cantonese was/is so common is mainly because back in the day, Chinese pop culture predominately came out of Hong Kong which lead most overseas Chinese to have some familiarity with Cantonese. Nowadays, everyone is moving into the mainland due to the huge market potential there so Mandarin is much more prominent.
 
I wonder if this trend is also replicated in other cities. Pretty sure that the newest cohort of wealthy Chinese immigrants tends to settle on the West Coast for its proximity, lifestyle and climate (though still buying property across North America), while a much more varied group settles in most other cities.

I think on the US Eastern Seaboard, a lot of the newer, Mandarin-speaking working class population runs the Chinese-American restaurants and the independent dollar stores. The Cantonese-speaking Hong Kong population I think is more or less tapped out, most people still living in Hong Kong will probably be staying as long as the political situation remains as-is.
 
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