Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

I and others have commented on that numerous times.

Rob Ford's plan would've resulted in the entire transit budget being used, meaning no funds for any other projects like the Finch LRT.

If the plan is as accepted as you suggest, then why not revive it? Why not put funding into that project instead of building a silly extension because 'we deserve it'?

Your constant complaining about the SRT shows a complete lack of perspective. Kennedy to STC in less than 10 minutes is amazing.

If I'm at Kipling and I want to get to Sherway, do you know what my options are? I'll let you figure that one out.

The key was to work with the Ford plan, and not throw it away and go back to the transfer LRT.
Elevating the Golden Mile portions (i.e. from Don Mills to Kennedy) was very feasible. We had a major who was very interested in grade-separating transit and managed to secure $900M in tax increases and $700M from the federal government.

I know Finch needs help, but the YUS extension to Vaughan would help, as would a UPE that was part of the transit network.

 

[syn]

I'm fully aware that Tory is full of it. The subway file left the station at the minute the province said it's either subway or subway...lol. And we were still able to mess that up...F'N unbelievable. We lost Lawrence East by meddling in it.

The province made it clear it's subway so I don't know what to tell you. Before they laid down the law, LRT was on the table and accepted, but LRT hardliners wouldn't accept anything but Transit City

This is not true.

The province fully supported the LRT and made it clear they'd abide by whatever the city decided.

Pretty sure McGuinty was responsible for that. I remember Miller being furious about the province gutting Transit City

Funding was postponed by McGuinty, Ford canceled the project.

My point is that even in the very conservative USA, the federal government is very present in terms of subsidizing transit and funding projects. It's an absolute shame that past Federal Governments got away by completely leaving cities to fend for themselves.

Agreed, however getting more upper level funding is difficult when available funds are poorly used.

I'm fully aware they have streetcars

They're LRTs, but nice try with the Ford calibre disinformation.

Start with getting yours straight my friend

Which facts have been incorrect?

 

[syn]

The key was to work with the Ford plan, and not throw it away and go back to the transfer LRT.
Elevating the Golden Mile portions (i.e. from Don Mills to Kennedy) was very feasible. We had a major who was very interested in grade-separating transit and managed to secure $900M in tax increases and $700M from the federal government.

I know Finch needs help, but the YUS extension to Vaughan would help, as would a UPE that was part of the transit network.

Ford didn't propose a plan that could be worked with.

He proposed a plan virtually guaranteed to be rejected as it doubled the cost and removed funding from other projects.

They are back to that plan now - the key is to start making sensible decisions. The first would be to cancel the SSE and put the funds into the Crosstown East extension.

Finch needs help. The keyword being 'needs'. Scarborough is already ahead of them now, and have been since the RT was implemented.

 

[WislaHD]

I would say 1 branch would be Kennedy Station to Eglinton East to Kinston Road to UTSC.
The second branch would be Kennedy Station to STC to Centennial to Malvern.

In the West, either 1 branch from Renforth Gateway to YYZ, and the other from Renforth Gateway to Square 1.
OR, 1 branch from Mt. Dennis to Renforth Gateway to YYZ, and the other from Mt. Dennis to Black Creek to Jane to Steeles West (aka Pioneer Village) Station.

Hell, why not.

If we used the money from the Scarborough Subway, we would be able to afford this network.

 

[Hopkins123]

Ford didn't propose a plan that could be worked with.

He proposed a plan virtually guaranteed to be rejected as it doubled the cost and removed funding from other projects.

They are back to that plan now - the key is to start making sensible decisions. The first would be to cancel the SSE and put the funds into the Crosstown East extension.

Finch needs help. The keyword being 'needs'. Scarborough is already ahead of them now, and have been since the RT was implemented.

As you can see, Finch was on nobody's radar through all these decades of rigorous planning until someone opened their big mouth and took priority away from other corridors that could have otherwise had their rapid transit upgrades built/under construction by now.

A subway to Scarborough Town Centre was decades in the making. Likewise a subway to Sherway you spoke of earlier. The $2 billion being tied up on the FWLRT and SELRT vanity projects (because 2800 pphpd ridership projected for FWLRT by 2031 does not warrant LRT) could instead be used towards dedicated bus lanes along those corridors and using the cost savings from not laying tracks there towards saving the Lawrence East/McCowan station from the chopping block and even add-in a Eglinton East/Brimley station or add back the trackage to Sheppard East.

You're subscribing to the same myopic line of thinking you're accusing subway supporters of having by thinking only LRT is a one-size-fits-all solution for all of the involved corridors. You can't compare 2800 pphpd along Finch West to 7400 pphpd along SSE, especially when one's the natural continuation of the existing Bloor-Danforth Line's 26,000 pphpd.

So yeah, I have to wonder: was it his plan that was so bad that it had to be rejected, or was more because he was the messenger?

 

[M II A II R II K]

If the stretch from Main Street to Kennedy can be mostly outside, then so can the extension.

 

[Cobra]

Which facts have been incorrect?

This is not true.

The province fully supported the LRT and made it clear they'd abide by whatever the city decided.

Google: Glen Murray 2 stop subway plan.

It was made clear that the province was out of the LRT plan to replace the SRT.

Funding was postponed by McGuinty, Ford canceled the project.

It's not a priority, DRL, SRT Replacement and Eglinton were.
Finch, Sheppard, Jane, Malvern should come AFTER those 3.

They're LRTs, but nice try with the Ford calibre disinformation.

Tramways is French for streetcars, so I'm right. I've used those lines and the old one really operates like streetcars. The new one operates like LRT with rapid service and transit signals prioritizing transit. I don't buy Toronto can deliver the same level as Paris did. Just look at how Spadina turned out.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

As you can see, Finch was on nobody's radar through all these decades of rigorous planning until someone opened their big mouth and took priority away from other corridors that could have otherwise had their rapid transit upgrades built/under construction by now.

A subway to Scarborough Town Centre was decades in the making. Likewise a subway to Sherway you spoke of earlier. The $2 billion being tied up on the FWLRT and SELRT vanity projects (because 2800 pphpd ridership projected for FWLRT by 2031 does not warrant LRT) could instead be used towards dedicated bus lanes along those corridors and using the cost savings from not laying tracks there towards saving the Lawrence East/McCowan station from the chopping block and even add-in a Eglinton East/Brimley station or add back the trackage to Sheppard East.

You're subscribing to the same myopic line of thinking you're accusing subway supporters of having by thinking only LRT is a one-size-fits-all solution for all of the involved corridors. You can't compare 2800 pphpd along Finch West to 7400 pphpd along SSE, especially when one's the natural continuation of the existing Bloor-Danforth Line's 26,000 pphpd.

So yeah, I have to wonder: was it his plan that was so bad that it had to be rejected, or was more because he was the messenger?

Half the proposals in that particular early 90s NDP/Metro plan have seen mode changes, alignment changes and parallel and competing options at one point in the past (or future). Taking it as a static be all and end all is patently unwise.

At this point though I am not sure whether we should default back to the LRT vs subway debate instead of focusing effort on reducing cost/increasing utility of the BD extension.

AoD

 

[M II A II R II K]

Yup. And since the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, the route could go diagonally from Kennedy to McCowan & Lawrence.

Not unnecessarily go under Eglinton and unnecessarily running 4km along McCowan which would further necessitate putting the whole thing underground.

 

[Hopkins123]

Half the proposals in that particular early 90s NDP/Metro plan have seen mode changes, alignment changes and parallel and competing options at one point in the past (or future). Taking it as a static be all and end all is patently unwise.

At this point though I am not sure whether we should default back to the LRT vs subway debate instead of focusing effort on reducing cost/increasing utility of the BD extension.

AoD

I'd love to focus on making the Bloor-Danforth extension more cost effective and useful. I think I was attempting to do so in my post and steer away from the tangent that it is the Scarborough "vanity project" that's stealing money away from other areas as many here are suggesting.

The intermediate stops definitely need to be added back in as a 6 km gap in service is just too wide. Even GO has greater stop frequency on several of its lines. Short of mass expropriations though how do we propose lowering the cost of tunneling along McCowan? The one spot where I think elevation/bridge would really be practical is the crossing of Lawrence and Highland Creek. The station box could be on the northwest side of the intersection with direct bridge access to Scarborough General Hospital. The line then stays elevated until entering a portal at St Andrews Rd. I don't know whether a solution like this was ever considered but it would go a long way towards improving the viability of the project and make it less vulnerable to criticism.

 

[Hopkins123]

To further my point, I quickly drew up this:

Can someone explain why this couldn't work?

 

[M II A II R II K]

Maybe it's best to avoid running through McCowan!

 

[Leo_Chan]

Yup. And since the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, the route could go diagonally from Kennedy to McCowan & Lawrence.

Not unnecessarily go under Eglinton and unnecessarily running 4km along McCowan which would further necessitate putting the whole thing underground.

Well, the issues with this are emergency exits and substations.

 

[syn]

Google: Glen Murray 2 stop subway plan.

It was made clear that the province was out of the LRT plan to replace the SRT.

Yes, in 2013...6 years after Transit City was announced, and three years after Ford canceled an already approved and funded LRT plan.

If Tory announced they would only be implementing the Crosstown East LRT and postponing the subway due to rising costs I'm pretty sure the province would back it.

If the cost continues to rise it will eventually be politically acceptable to oppose it.

Is this the only fact I'm 'wrong' about? Then I guess I'm presenting a lot of valid facts.

It's not a priority, DRL, SRT Replacement and Eglinton were.
Finch, Sheppard, Jane, Malvern should come AFTER those 3.

Yes, as I wrote, McGuinty postponed funding, Ford canceled the project.

I'd put Finch ahead of an SRT replacement.

Tramways is French for streetcars, so I'm right. I've used those lines and the old one really operates like streetcars. The new one operates like LRT with rapid service and transit signals prioritizing transit. I don't buy Toronto can deliver the same level as Paris did. Just look at how Spadina turned out.

Fine, let's assume they're all streetcars. Why is Paris building streetcars in it's suburbs, many of which are far denser than Scarborough?

The Crosstown East and a network of LRT lines would serve Scarborough very well.

The Spadina ROW was built over 20 years ago - it has higher ridership than the RT. It should be a subway.

The St. Clair ROW is a huge success.

Arguing the city can't built LRT lines in the city well because of Spadina is like arguing they shouldn't build subways because of the Sheppard Line.

 

[syn]

I'd love to focus on making the Bloor-Danforth extension more cost effective and useful. I think I was attempting to do so in my post and steer away from the tangent that it is the Scarborough "vanity project" that's stealing money away from other areas as many here are suggesting.

Citing plans from the 80s and 90s is pointless. The growth projections from the Network 2011 plan haven't taken place. There was an expectation that there would be heavy commercial and residential growth along Sheppard. Instead, downtown continued to boom and the Sheppard corridor remains suburban in nature.

This why the Sheppard Line is still woefully underused. Along with Kipling, Warden, Kennedy, etc. it just goes to show that 'build it and they will come' is a poor rationale for building subways.

The intermediate stops definitely need to be added back in as a 6 km gap in service is just too wide. Even GO has greater stop frequency on several of its lines. Short of mass expropriations though how do we propose lowering the cost of tunneling along McCowan? The one spot where I think elevation/bridge would really be practical is the crossing of Lawrence and Highland Creek. The station box could be on the northwest side of the intersection with direct bridge access to Scarborough General Hospital. The line then stays elevated until entering a portal at St Andrews Rd. I don't know whether a solution like this was ever considered but it would go a long way towards improving the viability of the project and make it less vulnerable to criticism.

They can't add the stops because just a one stop extension is going to cost $5 billion. In current cost estimates the city report makes it clear that the cost could go up by as much as 50% - and it will. There are still variables not accounted for.

Adding stops will likely push it into the $7 billion range, which makes absolutely no sense. There simply isn't enough ridership to justify it.

The only thing that makes sense is to put the entire thing above ground.