Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Leo_Chan]

You'd wish a service like the 504 King on Eglinton?

I think what is implied is that King and Queen should be getting the treatment Eglinton is getting, an underground LRT with surface sections on the sides, while Eglinton should just get a on-street LRT ROW with underground stops at subway stations.

This honestly wouldn’t be that bad, while a Relief Line is necessary nevertheless, it would have been a good interm solution with potential for subway/heavy rail upgradability in the future (with tunnel extensions).

Also, why is this being discussed in the Scarborough Merits thread and not the TTC Streetcar nor Crosstown thread?

 

[OneCity]

Also, why is this being discussed in the Scarborough Merits thread and not the TTC Streetcar nor Crosstown thread?

Agree. That seemed like it would be common sense.

 

[44 North]

I think some common sense needs to be applied here (though it doesn't seem welcome in this thread most of the time )

What kind of numbers does the 504 King generate? I'm willing to bet they're far higher than what we'd see along this portion of Eglinton, even after this proposed development. Increasing density in this corridor in no way, shape or form calls for putting the LRT underground (or elevating it).

If Queen and King can get by with streetcars (that don't even have a ROW), an above ground LRT is fine for this section. As much complaining as there's been, an LRT here is a lot better than what riders on Queen and King get.

We should really be looking at underground routes for those lines, that are already busy, have proven demand, with surrounding density that's only getting higher.

I never agreed with underground through Eglinton East simply due to ultra-high cost, but thought elevating was a really solid (and missed) opportunity. This is specifically for the McGuinty compromise only and not the current line. Not that what's planned now isn't solid either, particularly for bringing finer-grained levels of vastly improved transit.

That being said supporting grade-separation between Laird-Kennedy in the early 10s wasn't so much about the section viewed in isolation, or how much density Golden Mile would/wouldn't see. Rather how it related as a linkage between the planned underground section and the existing Line 3 (both fully grade-separate). And I guess how it related to the overall concept of a Malvern-Mississauga light subway/metro line. It'd be fairly suburban in spacing and nature so not fully comparable to an underground line in the older parts of the city.

But yeah existing plan is great, and its in-median operation - particularly on a road like Eglinton East - will offer more than enough capacity and attractive upzone opportunities into the future.

 

[syn]

I never agreed with underground through Eglinton East simply due to ultra-high cost, but thought elevating was a really solid (and missed) opportunity. This is specifically for the McGuinty compromise only and not the current line. Not that what's planned now isn't solid either, particularly for bringing finer-grained levels of vastly improved transit.

That being said supporting grade-separation between Laird-Kennedy in the early 10s wasn't so much about the section viewed in isolation, or how much density Golden Mile would/wouldn't see. Rather how it related as a linkage between the planned underground section and the existing Line 3 (both fully grade-separate). And I guess how it related to the overall concept of a Malvern-Mississauga light subway/metro line. It'd be fairly suburban in spacing and nature so not fully comparable to an underground line in the older parts of the city.

But yeah existing plan is great, and its in-median operation - particularly on a road like Eglinton East - will offer more than enough capacity and attractive upzone opportunities into the future.

I think a street level solution works well - it's the most accessible and they want to encourage transit use.

It will be many, many, many years before this area has the density and ridership to justify anything more than an LRT.

I think what is implied is that King and Queen should be getting the treatment Eglinton is getting, an underground LRT with surface sections on the sides, while Eglinton should just get a on-street LRT ROW with underground stops at subway stations.

This honestly wouldn’t be that bad, while a Relief Line is necessary nevertheless, it would have been a good interm solution with potential for subway/heavy rail upgradability in the future (with tunnel extensions).

What I was suggesting is that the LRT East, even above ground, is much better than what riders on King and Queen have to deal with right now.

That's why the suggestion that it needs to be underground or elevated because there's some density coming lacks perspective. If King and Queen riders still have to deal with a regular streetcar, Eglinton East won't need anything beyond the current LRT in our lifetimes.

Sensible transit planning would be looking at dramatic improvements to King and Queen, before spending billions on a one stop vanity extension or putting LRTs underground in Scarborough.

 

[OneCity]

Sensible transit planning would be looking at dramatic improvements to King and Queen, before spending billions on a one stop vanity extension or putting LRTs underground in Scarborough.

While I can understand some of your points in regards to ECLRT and the sadness of a single stop subway. Sensible transit planning is not pitting or even comparing SSE vs DRL or ECLRT vs King/Queen. Very few in Scarborough care too much about DRL or King/Queen which means they also don't care to fight against transit improvements for these areas when the time comes. Well that unless Downtown councilors continue to promote butchering in short sighted plans against quite large democratic support, and continue to vote against additional subway stops in Scarborough again against Scarborough democratic support all to save some short term dollars. Then its possible Scarborough councilors will do similar nonsense.

 

[Rainforest]

It doesn't need to be King streetcar vs Scarborough subway vs Eglinton vs something else.

Transit issues related to downtown, particularly to the "shoulder" areas not directly served by the YUS subway loop, are well understood. Efforts are under way to address them.

King transit priority pilot is about to start.

DRL is in early design stages.

It is just easier to find the transit expansion when multiple parts of the city are included in the process.

 

[syn]

It doesn't need to be King streetcar vs Scarborough subway vs Eglinton vs something else.

No, it doesn't. The point was to inject some common sense and perspective with a comparison to a part of the city with far greater ridership and far greater density that's still served by a lower order of transit than a dedicated LRT.

If King Street can still get by with a streetcar, there's no reason for an underground/elevated LRT at Eglinton & Victoria Park. That area of the city won't have the density to justify putting it underground for many, many many decades - long after our lifetimes.

Transit issues related to downtown, particularly to the "shoulder" areas not directly served by the YUS subway loop, are well understood. Efforts are under way to address them.

King transit priority pilot is about to start.

DRL is in early design stages.

It is just easier to find the transit expansion when multiple parts of the city are included in the process.

If they were well understood people wouldn't have believed any of Rob Ford's transit lies.

If they were well understood this thread wouldn't exist.

 

[WislaHD]

Very few in Scarborough care too much about DRL

They really should.

 

[OneCity]

They really should.

Maybe if Scarborough had a well connected and extensive transit network that brings high quality investment to their core in combination with better integration to the city and an improved feeder network they would care more. Transfer City failed on its merits, skipping a very important step with a band aid solution. And the SSE with it flaws is the starting point since other options were rejected. If stops are added it will be great for Scarborough and a major step in the right direction.

Until the time Scarborough residents have more reason to take the TTC its never going to be the priority. But again the point was Scarborough is not obstructing any of these other plans. Same cant be said on the other side as they still try to push their unwanted Band-aid and this could come actually back to hurt down the road far worse than it already has

 

[WislaHD]

Maybe if Scarborough had a well connected and extensive transit network that brings high quality investment to their core in combination with better integration to the city and an improved feeder network they would care more. Transfer City failed on its merits, skipping a very important step with a band aid solution. And the SSE with it flaws is the starting point since other options were rejected. If stops are added it will be great for Scarborough and a major step in the right direction.

Until the time Scarborough residents have more reason to take the TTC its never going to be the priority. But again the point was Scarborough is not obstructing any of these other plans. Same cant be said on the other side as they still try to push their unwanted Band-aid and this could come actually back to hurt down the road far worse than it already has

You do understand which subway line the Scarborough Extension is being proposed to extend from, right?

 

[Rainforest]

No, it doesn't. The point was to inject some common sense and perspective with a comparison to a part of the city with far greater ridership and far greater density that's still served by a lower order of transit than a dedicated LRT.

You are not injecting common sense. You are injecting very simplistic narratives.

If King Street can still get by with a streetcar, there's no reason for an underground/elevated LRT at Eglinton & Victoria Park. That area of the city won't have the density to justify putting it underground for many, many many decades - long after our lifetimes.

Design of Eglinton LRT has nothing to do with King streetcar.

I have no issues with the current design of Eglinton LRT, with parts of the line being in street median. There is a number of reasons to keep it this way.

The fact that King streetcar runs on surface isn't one of those reasons.

If they were well understood people wouldn't have believed any of Rob Ford's transit lies.

If they were well understood this thread wouldn't exist.

They are well understood by people in charge of this city, and are being addressed.

Existence of this thread doesn't block them in any way.

 

[syn]

You are not injecting common sense. You are injecting very simplistic narratives.



Design of Eglinton LRT has nothing to do with King streetcar.

I have no issues with the current design of Eglinton LRT, with parts of the line being in street median. There is a number of reasons to keep it this way.

The fact that King streetcar runs on surface isn't one of those reasons.

No one wrote anything of the sort.

They are well understood by people in charge of this city, and are being addressed.

Existence of this thread doesn't block them in any way.

That's very clearly not the case.

This is why virtually every transit expert thinks the SSE is a bad idea.

 

[WislaHD]

This is why virtually every transit expert thinks the SSE is a bad idea.

Or, we could ask if anywhere else in the world would ever or has built a 6km one stop subway.

The only two places that have are Moscow (tunnel under federally protected forest) and San Francisco (tunnel under the Bay).

Then, we quickly see the ridiculousness of the plan. This isn't an argument against Scarborough having rapid transit of course, but on implementation.

 

[syn]

I'm a big proponent of Rapid Transit throughout the GTA.

The current RT works really well - Kennedy to STC, a 6km trip or so in 10 minutes or less is fantastic.

A well thought out LRT network that can be expanded with relative ease would be great for Scarborough.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Just build a GO train spur to SCC off of the Stoufville Line where some of the trains terminate there.

Even if you have to wait longer for it the route would be an actual express service to downtown, no wasting time unnecessary sitting through the Danforth as the train gets increasingly more packed, and no Bloor/Yonge bottlenecks.

And if you wanted to connect with either Line 2 or 5 it’s a single transfer.