Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

The tax levy for the SSE could have been used for the DRL, for example. If you don't see that the DRL is extremely pressing, I encourage you to ride Line 1 some day.

The tax levy was raised for the SSE. So no it can't be used for something else.

Raise another levy for the DRL. I, for one, would happily vote for that.

Toronto taxes are ridiculously low. Particularly for the infrastructure that everyone wants. Torontonians can and should pay more. We can't get the DRL and all the LRTs we want, unless people stop being such cheapskates.

People want a "world class" city. They should be ready to pay for it. Toronto has the lowest Mill rates in the province. And in absolute terms, lower taxes than the 905 and virtually every other urban area in the province, per sqft. All while getting the best services in the country.

Oh and in a world class city, this debate would never have happened. The taxes would have been charged. And they'd have built, not just the SSE, but the DRL, Yonge North and an Eglinton subway, years ago.

My favorite example is Ottawa. In 2006, they voted for Larry O'Brien. He cancelled the existing LRT plan. He proposed a substantially more expensive plan. With a massive tunnel. Lots of debate whether it was worthwhile. Sounds like Ford right? Yet, he raised taxes and paid for it. Their first "subway" will open in 2018. And Stage 2 will be completed by 2024, with 70% of Ottawa residents being within 5km of rapid transit. The whole system, will be fully segregated and mostly grade separated. They achieved that within 17 years of their first plan being cancelled. All while paying for one third of their whole plan. Unlike, Toronto, which is getting several LRTs paid for by the province.

 

[syn]

It's not $5b. Its $3.5 b. And the LRT would have cost $2b. So really the "cost" of saving the transfer is $1.5b.

Of course that is arguably a waste still - but lets use the facts here at least.

It's actually $4 billion at this point, and internal city documents indicate it's going to be over $5 billion.

The media makes the SSE as a devil with no justification. It isn't. It has some uses. Arguably not worth the costs - but its not going to be some $5 billion line with nobody on it like many like to portray. It will be busy for an end of line station, it will not cost $5 billion, and it will not cost horribly more than the LRT would have cost.

TYSSE was built to Steeles as a purely planning based line. The planners supported it as the preferred way forward and the highest priority transit project at the time. The 2 additional stations were pure politics.

Remember as well that the TYSSE is going to be significantly lower ridership than the SSE - even for the part that was done without political meddling.

If the SSE is a waste of transit dollars, there isn't much that isn't. DRL phase 1 and the Yonge extension are the only other subway projects with more justification in terms of pure ridership. Given the much higher costs of those projects - SSE is actually fairly good for ridership for money.


DRL BTW will only be higher ridership than the SSE south of Bloor if it runs to Eglinton. South of Eglinton if it runs to Sheppard.

End of line stations are always fairly low ridership as there isn't any through ridership. it's part of the job. Doesn't mean that the station won't get a ton of use.

Forget the media - numbers don't support the SSE as a rational investment.

The DRL isn't just about pure ridership numbers - it's about taking stress off the Yonge Line, which is already over capacity. The DRL is a critical project, one that should've been completed decades ago.

As for ridership - I'm sure a south Spadina extension, or putting a subway under King or Queen would have far better ridership than the SSE.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's actually $4 billion at this point, and internal city documents indicate it's going to be over $5 billion.

Source???

 

[sixrings]

The tax levy was raised for the SSE. So no it can't be used for something else.

Raise another levy for the DRL. I, for one, would happily vote for that.

Toronto taxes are ridiculously low. Particularly for the infrastructure that everyone wants. Torontonians can and should pay more. We can't get the DRL and all the LRTs we want, unless people stop being such cheapskates.

People want a "world class" city. They should be ready to pay for it. Toronto has the lowest Mill rates in the province. And in absolute terms, lower taxes than the 905 and virtually every other urban area in the province, per sqft. All while getting the best services in the country.

Oh and in a world class city, this debate would never have happened. The taxes would have been charged. And they'd have built, not just the SSE, but the DRL, Yonge North and an Eglinton subway, years ago.

My favorite example is Ottawa. In 2006, they voted for Larry O'Brien. He cancelled the existing LRT plan. He proposed a substantially more expensive plan. With a massive tunnel. Lots of debate whether it was worthwhile. Sounds like Ford right? Yet, he raised taxes and paid for it. Their first "subway" will open in 2018. And Stage 2 will be completed by 2024, with 70% of Ottawa residents being within 5km of rapid transit. The whole system, will be fully segregated and often grade separated. They achieved that within 17 years of their first plan being cancelled. All while paying for one third of their whole plan. Unlike, Toronto, which is getting several LRTs paid for by the province.

If people wanted to pay more taxes then they wouldn't have voted for the likes of Ford and his stop the gravy train, find efficiencies lines as well as Tory and his we can build Surface rail for next to nothing platform. Just because you are happy paying more taxes does not mean the average Torontonian does. Also when taxes are raised, people through around phrases like its an attack on the poor. Exactly how will Scarborough handle not one huge tax increase for a line that will be less accessible to them (SSE) and a DRL which apparently they think they do not need and is for downtown elites.

 

[kEiThZ]

The DRL isn't just about pure ridership numbers - it's about taking stress off the Yonge Line, which is already over capacity. The DRL is a critical project, one that should've been completed decades ago.

So build it?

I get annoyed that DRL gets linked to the SSE. They aren't related. And canceling one will not bring the other into existence.

Now, that does not mean that the SSE is worthwhile per se (compared to alternatives). But the idea we should hold other projects hostage to the DRL is patently ridiculous.

It's an unfortunate fact of reality that other levels of government are more willing to fund suburban transit. So why should we turn down those funds? Time for Toronto to move on a plan to pay for the DRL by itself. Come up with a phasing and financing plan that will make it happen.

 

[OneCity]

I love that there is a grassroots citizen movement to sink this pointless, wasteful extension that's gaining momentum, resulting in ever increasing media and political pressure.

I understand why you believe this to be true. But is it a real movement gaining momentum? or the same groups with a political backing shouting louder?

This group has very small inner Scarborough support and was created thru an outside Scarborough transit group which is receiving their usual "grassroots" partnership from the extensive political "Left" arm of the City? By comparison Renew Scarborough has a larger and solid "grassroot" foundation from various different stakeholders (community groups, leaders, Politicians, Business, and educational institutions) right across Scarborough and their support for the subway is a far better indicator of reality. Since the fine details in any of the current plans don't matter much and its all about the technology and political egos on all sides then action and connectivity is where the actual movement is more likely to be seen.

The politics are bad on all sides. At this stage If the goal is to prevent further waste in this politically poisoned debate this might not be a good cause to support . If you want to see the dollars escalate while doing absolutely nothing and in turn creating further hostility for all projects in other area of the City going forward than by all means support. I see far worse and opposing outcomes possible from this fight to force a flawed transfer LRT line against the one stop subway concept, even with all its warts. Apathetic voters who just want better and want action may fight back thru any volatile Politicians looking to gain from this debacle and the clear flaws in both plans. I believe Tory has the action and peace vote which should carry but, the pro transfer "opposition" are doing themselves no favours politically, and should be well aware of this reality. A high number of voters have little patience for any political pressure trying to create "citizen movement" to go backwards and resurrect an old plan weve heard about for decades and should these voters become more apathetic and annoyed they will vote that way.

Both these plans have their serious flaws, are easy political targets and its hard to believe this is what the debate is at this stage. Since we are stuck in an endless loop of a hurt political egos, and political opportunism its better to move forward. Going back is going to provide questionable savings "if" you could even force the old plan, the time for compromise has likely passed and we need to move forward in the real path of least resistance. I can only hope the add a Lawrence stop, otherwise move on.

Please feel free to rebut why this is an actual "movement" as this is just my take. Hopefully without any "Ford & Trump" support allegations and personal attacks please. Sorry not you, but has to be said.

 

[syn]

Source???

Article from March:
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...-with-the-scarborough-subway-so-what-now.html

Another from a recent editorial:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/edi...e-scarborough-subway-extension-editorial.html

"In fact, $3.35 billion is the very least the one-stop subway extension might cost. City staff acknowledge it could cost as much as $5.02 billion."

Here's another article from the Globe & Mail

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/op...34179150/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

 

[syn]

So build it?

I get annoyed that DRL gets linked to the SSE. They aren't related. And canceling one will not bring the other into existence.

Now, that does not mean that the SSE is worthwhile per se (compared to alternatives). But the idea we should hold other projects hostage to the DRL is patently ridiculous.

It's an unfortunate fact of reality that other levels of government are more willing to fund suburban transit. So why should we turn down those funds? Time for Toronto to move on a plan to pay for the DRL by itself. Come up with a phasing and financing plan that will make it happen.

If the city made the DRL their #1 priority I'm sure they could get funding for it.

Transit funding isn't unlimited. Spending $5 billion for one, 6km stop is insanity.

I agree - don't turn it down, but use it wisely.

 

[syn]

If people wanted to pay more taxes then they wouldn't have voted for the likes of Ford and his stop the gravy train, find efficiencies lines as well as Tory and his we can build Surface rail for next to nothing platform. Just because you are happy paying more taxes does not mean the average Torontonian does. Also when taxes are raised, people through around phrases like its an attack on the poor. Exactly how will Scarborough handle not one huge tax increase for a line that will be less accessible to them (SSE) and a DRL which apparently they think they do not need and is for downtown elites.

I agree with @kEiThZ that we should pay more in tax to fund these projects - but you're right. That shift in mindset becomes next to impossible when you have politicians like Ford claiming there's so much waste he can build subways for free with private funding.

That kind of nonsense pushes things back by decades.

 

[sixrings]

I agree with @kEiThZ that we should pay more in tax to fund these projects - but you're right. That shift in mindset becomes next to impossible when you have politicians like Ford claiming there's so much waste he can build subways for free with private funding.

That kind of nonsense pushes things back by decades.

Im on record saying I would pay twice my current tax if it went to transit. However as I say that I shake my head and think im crazy if they are just going to waste those dollars on projects like SSE which to most experts arent warranted.

 

[syn]

Im on record saying I would pay twice my current tax if it went to transit. However as I say that I shake my head and think im crazy if they are just going to waste those dollars on projects like SSE which to most experts arent warranted.

That's exactly the problem.

Hard to trust your taxes being raised for sensible transit expansion when you know politicians are just going to push projects in areas with voters they need to woo.

 

[kEiThZ]

If the city made the DRL their #1 priority I'm sure they could get funding for it.

Agreed. So stop hitting on Scarborough for the DRL fantasies not coming true. Not a single mayor has made the DRL their priority. And neither has most of council, who aren't from Scarborough. For that matter, neither has the province with MO2020.

Transit funding isn't unlimited. Spending $5 billion for one, 6km stop is insanity.

Transit funding isn't unlimited. Sure. But Torontonians willingness to fund transit is ridiculously low. I would submit the only reason the SSE is so damn controversial is because other projects aren't getting built. Would you be complaining about the SSE so vociferously, if the DRL was being built right now? So the temptation to link the frustration over the DRL with the ever inflating SSE is natural. But wrong. If the SSE got cancelled tomorrow, there's not one shred of evidence that the DRL would suddenly be prioritized an all SSE funds would be directed towards it.

I agree - don't turn it down, but use it wisely.

As long as Torontonians insist that Queen's Park pay for most of their transit construction, there will be no spending wisely. It's very hard to say no to the SSE, after building the northern portion of TYSSE. Toronto will have much more say when they start raising their own funds for transit.

That shift in mindset becomes next to impossible when you have politicians like Ford claiming there's so much waste he can build subways for free with private funding.

Both the right and left are guilty of this. Let's not forget that when Miller launched Transit City, there was exactly zero dollars in the budget allocated to it. It was also a ridiculous lowballed figure of $6 billion for all the Transit City lines. And then he turned around and insisted that the Province pay for it. Has Toronto made a significant contribution to any of the Transit City LRTs? So if we're going to have fantasy LRT plans where Queen's Park picks up the tab, it was inevitable to see the same on the subway side.

 

[kEiThZ]

Just because you are happy paying more taxes does not mean the average Torontonian does.

Then they deserve the system they have. And we shouldn't have much sympathy for them. I certainly don't. I am hoping that Metrolinx absorbs the TTC at some point and that transit gets regionalized and taken out of the hands of local politicians.

 

[sixrings]

I live right beside a station. Won't bother me if we Stop building transit. In fact my house value will increase based on the rarity of The Property

 

[Rainforest]

Of course it does. The tax levy for the SSE could have been used for the DRL, for example. If you don't see that the DRL is extremely pressing, I encourage you to ride Line 1 some day.

I ride Line 1 almost every workday, and am aware as much as you that it needs relief. I encourage the City Councillors who support the Relief Line to actually table a motion asking to start collecting the tax levy for the Relief Line.

You probably know that no such motion has be put forward prior to SSE, or during the initial debate on SSE, or during any subsequent debates. That said motion hasn't been tabled to date.

Under such circumstances, it is hard to blame SSE for the lack of progress on the Relief Line funding.

$5B is worth saving one transfer? $5B is worth saving a few minutes travel time?

As another poster pointed out, the real difference in costs is much less than what you think.

Using that logic we should have a subway everywhere in the city, there are hundreds of transfers everywhere and there are hundreds of routes that are slower than a subway.

This kind of generalization is irrational. Obviously we can't have a subway everywhere in the city, but we can and should have a subway serving a few corridors where its presence improves transit trips for a large number of people. SSE is one of those corridors.

Those of us that see through all the BS arguments "justifying" the SSE call those supporters suffering from "entitlement" precisely because they aren't being rational. There are no other reasons to support a SSE than jealousy and politics.

Well no one can stop you from making this kind of frivolous statements. However, I will continue to call them for what they are: snobbish and arrogant attacks on the suburban residents.

By those logic, there should be a subway to every pocket of the city, but most of us realize that would be stupidity.

When someone actually proposes to build a subway to every pocket of the city, your statement against such a plan might attain some relevance.