Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

There is a real fear from inner suburban residents that they will be taxed to fund the Downtown and I cant blame them

That's a pretty ridiculous concern to be have, given that Toronto/East York and North York generate the bulk of tax revenue in the city. If this is their concern, then maybe tax revenue should only be spent in the boroughs where they're generated. Of course, this would be highly beneficial to Downtown residents, who generate 25% of property tax revenues and 50% of GDP despite occupying 3% of Toronto's land mass (note that this is a stupid idea that I don't at all support)

It's just pretty absurd to be concerned about that when over the decades the inner suburbs (mainly Scarborough and Etobicoke) have collectively had billions of dollars (if not tens of billions of dollars) in funding pumped into them from other areas of the city.

Even if you want to look at just transit investments, the last time Toronto/East York had major transit investment was the late 50s and early 60s. All the funding since then has been focused on the suburbs.

Toronto's suburbs are getting some 25 km of new subways being delivered right now (TYSSE, SSE, ECLRT). Council just endorsed a plan that will have another 14 km of suburban subways delivered over the coming decades, in addition to the 25 km already in delivery. There are only 12 km of downtown subways proposed, after more than 50 years of no Downtown expansion. So these fears seem pretty unfounded to me. They're not based in any kind of historical precedent, and there aren't even plans to build a disproportionate amount of transit Downtown in the future

 

[rbt]

That's a pretty ridiculous concern to be have, given that Toronto/East York and North York generate the bulk of tax revenue in the city. If this is their concern, then maybe tax revenue should only be spent in the boroughs where they're generated. Of course, this would be highly beneficial to Downtown residents, who generate 25% of property tax revenues and 50% of GDP despite occupying 3% of Toronto's land mass (note that this is a stupid idea that I don't at all support)

It's not an uncommon fear. Northern Ontario feels they get taxed to fund the GTA. Parts of Quebec (of all places) feel they are taxed to fund the rest of Canada; argument is the contributions to the military (an Ontario/Alberta thing in their opinion) are larger than transfer payments.

I don't really understand how it happens but it is common to feel taken advantage of even when you're the beneficiary of the arrangement.

 

[syn]

That's a pretty ridiculous concern to be have, given that Toronto/East York and North York generate the bulk of tax revenue in the city. If this is their concern, then maybe tax revenue should only be spent in the boroughs where they're generated. Of course, this would be highly beneficial to Downtown residents, who generate 25% of property tax revenues and 50% of GDP despite occupying 3% of Toronto's land mass (note that this is a stupid idea that I don't at all support)

It's just pretty absurd to be concerned about that when over the decades the inner suburbs (mainly Scarborough and Etobicoke) have collectively had billions of dollars (if not tens of billions of dollars) in funding pumped into them from other areas of the city.

Even if you want to look at just transit investments, the last time Toronto/East York had major transit investment was the late 50s and early 60s. All the funding since then has been focused on the suburbs.

Toronto's suburbs are getting some 25 km of new subways being delivered right now (TYSSE, SSE, ECLRT). Council just endorsed a plan that will have another 14 km of suburban subways delivered over the coming decades, in addition to the 25 km already in delivery. There are only 12 km of downtown subways proposed, after more than 50 years of no Downtown expansion. So these fears seem pretty unfounded to me. They're not based in any kind of historical precedent, and there aren't even plans to build a disproportionate amount of transit Downtown in the future

I'm pretty sure the idea that Scarborough is funding downtown transit has been debunked at least twice already. It's telling that it had to be addressed again.

 

[Rainforest]

I'm pretty sure the idea that Scarborough is funding downtown transit has been debunked at least twice already. It's telling that it had to be addressed again.

Not so simple.

For public transit, downtown is a cash cow (thanks to the flat-fare system, that makes short trips much more economical for the transit agency).

On the other hand, one can argue that museums and galleries etc are funded by property taxes from the whole city, but are mostly located in downtown and thus more accessible for downtowners.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Not so simple.

For public transit, downtown is a cash cow (thanks to the flat-fare system, that makes short trips much more economical for the transit agency).

On the other hand, one can argue that museums and galleries etc are funded by property taxes from the whole city, but are mostly located in downtown and thus more accessible for downtowners.

The amount of city funding to museum and galleries is minuscule - and public transit is a rather poor proposition for downtown-downtown travel in general due to high relative fare and low trip time competitiveness.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The amount of city funding to museum and galleries is minuscule - and public transit is a rather poor proposition for downtown-downtown travel in general due to high relative fare and low trip time competitiveness.

AoD

Transit modal share for Downtown Toronto residents is actually relatively low, while car and bike modal shares are unusually high. This is a reflection of the ineffectiveness of the Downtown transit system. Streetcar travel is the main way of getting around and it gets snarled in very congested Downtown streets.

 

[OneCity]

That's a pretty ridiculous concern to be have, given that Toronto/East York and North York generate the bulk of tax revenue in the city. If this is their concern, then maybe tax revenue should only be spent in the boroughs where they're generated. Of course, this would be highly beneficial to Downtown residents, who generate 25% of property tax revenues and 50% of GDP despite occupying 3% of Toronto's land mass (note that this is a stupid idea that I don't at all support)

It's just pretty absurd to be concerned about that when over the decades the inner suburbs (mainly Scarborough and Etobicoke) have collectively had billions of dollars (if not tens of billions of dollars) in funding pumped into them from other areas of the city.

Even if you want to look at just transit investments, the last time Toronto/East York had major transit investment was the late 50s and early 60s. All the funding since then has been focused on the suburbs.

Toronto's suburbs are getting some 25 km of new subways being delivered right now (TYSSE, SSE, ECLRT). Council just endorsed a plan that will have another 14 km of suburban subways delivered over the coming decades, in addition to the 25 km already in delivery. There are only 12 km of downtown subways proposed, after more than 50 years of no Downtown expansion. So these fears seem pretty unfounded to me. They're not based in any kind of historical precedent, and there aren't even plans to build a disproportionate amount of transit Downtown in the future

Your unhappiness for lack necessary investment in Downtown is absolutely valid, but its not a Scarborough related issue that has caused that and if you believe the most neglected suburb housing 25% of the Citys population will happily see it taxes raised when there is a refusal and ongoing outside assault to talk over their overwhelming democratic vote in an attempt to prevent a proper subway line linking to the City's main infrastructure Im not sure what to tell you here? It's a tough sell to say the least and far easier to sell the opposite at this time.

Scarborough has had the worst transit decisions in the GTA for decades with the disconnected RT to the City Centre (and the Transit City Band-Aid concept), all while they've been assisting to fund the operation and maintenance of high quality investment made previously thru out the City for decades. We currently have a subway extension that is at the same design stage as the DRL and still under persistent attack to cancel or keep transfers and has now been stripped to one stop. Nothing here that would make residents want to keep paying taxes in this City. After Vaughan Centre and the all out fight for poor connectivity to SCC, theres nothing here at all.

I completely get the need for Downtowns relief required to support the amazing investments of the past and the people in the inner suburbs will be helping to pay for all of those subway lines in when the time comes, and likely including vanity projects, and even massive vanity projects like parks in the Billions. Will Scarborough Centre which is home to 25% of the population going to get a park for 25% of the cost of rail deck park? Highly unlikely. So without support for better connection and the locally supported capital projects residents will certainly continue to feel disconnected to the City they pay taxes into will have little appetite to have their taxes raise to prop other areas of the City as the "priority". Its the climate were in, and as I stated earlier the only way to change is for the tax friendly left Mayoral candidate is to be more supportive of these inner suburb voters on their choice for local issues and until then the lower tax right leaning candidates who support the main objectives of these voters will have their way.

 

[Spicy Garage]

Will Scarborough Centre which is home to 25% of the population going to get a park for 25% of the cost of rail deck park?

 

[OneCity]

View attachment 135037

Now put that same map up with subways and you'll see even larger discrepancy In this City. If we provide we'll connected rapid transit to Scarborough you'll have greater access to beautiful parkland.

Now im not against building the park i anyway, im only against these big capital Dowtown projects when the councillors of these areas repeatedly refuse to repsect the needs and voters of the inner suburbs. If we want to be able to raise taxes to pay for the needs of Dowtown we need to support inner suburbs needs with greater detail and more importantly have a higher level of respect for their democratic vote. Otherwise it cant happen or won't be sustained. Which is why the tax friendlier Left will continues to be irrelevant without a united City.

 

[syn]

It seems that downtown residents are being short-changed when it comes to parkland! Why?! We pay taxes just like everyone else. We deserve parkland and oxygen just like the elites in Scarborough! Why is the biased media not exposing this 'rightist' conspiracy?!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Now put that same map up with subways and you'll see even larger discrepancy In this City. If we provide we'll connected rapid transit to Scarborough you'll have greater access to beautiful parkland.

Now im not against building the park i anyway, im only against these big capital Dowtown projects when the councillors of these areas repeatedly refuse to repsect the needs and voters of the inner suburbs. If we want to be able to raise taxes to pay for the needs of Dowtown we need to support inner suburbs needs with greater detail and more importantly have a higher level of respect for their democratic vote. Otherwise it cant happen or won't be sustained. Which is why the tax friendlier Left will continues to be irrelevant without a united City.

Hopefully one day you’ll get out of your myopic bubble and resize that this isn’t Scarborough vs. The World. In this city of 2.8 Million people, there are a diverse set of viewpoints. Some of us downtown and support the subway. Some of us live inside of Scarborough and oppose the subway. Many others really don’t give a shit what is built. It’s only in that myopic bubble of your that the rest of the city is seemingly plotting the downfall of Scarborough.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Now put that same map up with subways and you'll see even larger discrepancy In this City. If we provide we'll connected rapid transit to Scarborough you'll have greater access to beautiful parkland.

Now im not against building the park i anyway, im only against these big capital Dowtown projects when the councillors of these areas repeatedly refuse to repsect the needs and voters of the inner suburbs. If we want to be able to raise taxes to pay for the needs of Dowtown we need to support inner suburbs needs with greater detail and more importantly have a higher level of respect for their democratic vote. Otherwise it cant happen or won't be sustained. Which is why the tax friendlier Left will continues to be irrelevant without a united City.

There is no hard spending on the rail deck park at this point - and rest assured, a good chunk of it will probably be paid for out of parkland levy collected from downtown developments. On the other hand, downtown doesn't particularly want to pay a billion to keep Eastern Gardiner up - let's tear it down and spend it on the park instead, deal?

AoD

 

[Streety McCarface]

There is no hard spending on the rail deck park at this point - and rest assured, a good chunk of it will probably be paid for out of parkland levy collected from downtown developments. On the other hand, downtown doesn't particularly want to pay a billion to keep Eastern Gardiner up - let's tear it down and spend it on the park instead, deal?

AoD

No, keep it, but turn the Gardiner and DVP into an elevated rail line or an elevated park instead, preferably the elevated rail line.

 

[Rainforest]

It seems that downtown residents are being short-changed when it comes to parkland! Why?! We pay taxes just like everyone else. We deserve parkland and oxygen just like the elites in Scarborough! Why is the biased media not exposing this 'rightist' conspiracy?!

Well when the whole area is built up, then I guess it becomes difficult to find space for parkland.

Euclid's geometry is the conspiracy!

 

[Rainforest]

On the other hand, downtown doesn't particularly want to pay a billion to keep Eastern Gardiner up - let's tear it down and spend it on the park instead, deal?

AoD

No objections whatsoever.