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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Realistically, I see the TTC ordering new cars instead of replacing it at this moment.
Besides the TTC have more important lines to build. This might get built after DRL long is built.
 
Realistically, I see the TTC ordering new cars instead of replacing it at this moment.
Besides the TTC have more important lines to build. This might get built after DRL long is built.
They really need to figure things out because the SRT has to be decommissioned by around 2025 in order for Stouffville RER to commence.
 
Why? Do they not have enough room with the SRT still there?

I don't believe so, particularly if they want to triple track or even double track the section. They'd have to expropriate a bunch of properties and that would probably cost at least at least half a billion dollars.
 
I don't believe so, particularly if they want to triple track or even double track the section. They'd have to expropriate a bunch of properties and that would probably cost at least at least half a billion dollars.

They can double track with the SRT.

It would mean they would have to work with double track in that section, which is not impossible (you triple track before and after and sneak express trains through at specific times) but it would definitely be limiting.
 

a LOT of biased misinformation in here from an angry old man who didnt get his way (as are opinion pieces often)

"No other transit authority bought the system" - Not true, it is the backbone of the Vancouver Skytrain, the Detroit People Mover, the JFK airport connection in New York, and now many other systems as the technology was taken over by Bombardier as their Innovia Metro technology used in South Korea, Malaysia, China, etc etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Innovia_Metro

" It was supposed to be driverless. But drivers had to be added." At the insistence of the TTC. The driverless technology was excellent and has provided safe and reliable transit for decades in Vancouver. Meanwhile, 4 people lost their lives in Toronto from driver error on a TTC subway train in 1995.

The rest I agree with though, sort of. The subway is an epic waste of money, but so is the LRT.

The best bang for buck is and always was to upgrade and refurbish the existing SRT and extend it to Malvern Town Centre.

Unfortunately this opinion piece paints the SRT as some sort of failed and flawed system, so that idea gets thrown under the bus.

Its only failings and flaws are a direct result of the TTC's mismanagement of it. It works fine everywhere else. (ok maybe not Detroit but that is also because the system is woefully underbuilt)
 
a LOT of biased misinformation in here from an angry old man who didnt get his way (as are opinion pieces often)

"No other transit authority bought the system" - Not true, it is the backbone of the Vancouver Skytrain, the Detroit People Mover, the JFK airport connection in New York, and now many other systems as the technology was taken over by Bombardier as their Innovia Metro technology used in South Korea, Malaysia, China, etc etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Innovia_Metro

" It was supposed to be driverless. But drivers had to be added." At the insistence of the TTC. The driverless technology was excellent and has provided safe and reliable transit for decades in Vancouver. Meanwhile, 4 people lost their lives in Toronto from driver error on a TTC subway train in 1995.

The rest I agree with though, sort of. The subway is an epic waste of money, but so is the LRT.

The best bang for buck is and always was to upgrade and refurbish the existing SRT and extend it to Malvern Town Centre.

Unfortunately this opinion piece paints the SRT as some sort of failed and flawed system, so that idea gets thrown under the bus.

Its only failings and flaws are a direct result of the TTC's mismanagement of it. It works fine everywhere else. (ok maybe not Detroit but that is also because the system is woefully underbuilt)
Don't forget about the unions.
 
'

It would most likely be less expensive, especially since the LRT is being extended. Here's why:
Operations
Since rolling stock facilities need to be built for the SLRT that adds to costs (either that, or deadhead trains all the way to Mt Dennis, and that's extremely inefficient). The presence of a new yard will increase operating costs in itself, so that's already a huge bill to swallow.

Traction
Contrary to what I believed earlier, subway traction power requirements are exactly the same as what would be needed for as the proposed Scarborough line. Here's why: A typical Flexity streetcar weighs 48 Tonnes, and 4 Flexities are supposed to make up one Scarborough LRT Train. Compare this to a 6-car Toronto Rocket train: 205 Tonnes. They are almost exactly the same mass. If we assume passenger loads are the same for each mode of transit, their effects are negligible. According to the theory of the conservation of energy, Work (The total amount of power required across a distance) is based on the force required to move the object times the distance. Since the distance would be longer on the LRT line, and the force required to move the LRT and subways would be the same for both vehicles (F=ma=(~200,000kg)(acceleration of train required m/s^2)), traction costs would, in fact, be greater on the LRT line then they would be on the subway line since the distances are greater on the LRT line if we assume the terrain is flat. Note, work calculations are actually a lot more complicated than this because of circular energies of the wheels, but doing advanced integration here would probably get me banned.

However, (skip this if don't give a shit about physics) this is only assuming no inclines are present in either line, and we know for a fact that the depth of the subway is to decrease significantly over the course of the SSE. For every train travelling to Kennedy, they will also have to travel up an incline. For this, we have to add the initial work required to move the train along the line to the work required to move the train up. This can be represented by an equation for potential energy, U=mgh. If the train is to have to move up an incline of 20m, 40 megajoules of extra power are required. If this incline occurs over 2 minutes of travel time, 330 extra kilowatts of power are required to move that train up the incline. This is a difference of 550 amps of power per train. This is only going up the incline though. Going down the incline, the train does negative work to travel deeper underground. Since regenerative braking gives back about 30-50% of the 40 megajoules of energy required to move the train up the hill, the net energy difference as a result of this incline is between 20 and 28 megajoules per train. Let it be known, the terrain for the SLRT is not very flat, and the line goes up and down inclines as it switches from grade level to elevated.

Operators
Operators are the highest cost of a line. Since more drivers will be required to move the smaller trains to the STC, those operation costs increase
Since the line is a new standalone line with a different technology, it must have different route planners and different operation executives. These are the most expensive employees to pay, so operation costs there are significantly higher. Compare this to that of the Bloor Danforth line, where fewer operators are required to run trains, they are already employees of the TTC, and executives are already running a line and at worst will need small raises.

Maintenance (Trains)
Since LRVs have a statistically higher rate between breakdowns (15K km vs 600K km, so LRVs are 40 times as likely to break down as heavy rail vehicles), they require more deadheading and more Mantainence staff. These maintenance staff would also have to be based out of the new yard, or trains would require significant deadheading, meaning costs would increase no matter where maintenance takes place. Lost revenue also has to be considered when trains are taken out of service.

Maintenace (Infrastructure)
This one's hard to say, since the LRV would be elevated and longer than the subway. On one hand, concrete liners aren't an issue. On the other, pantograph carbons, & pantograph lines wear out quickly and need replacement more often than third rails etc. The line is also aboveground, adding to operation costs since they are susceptible to the elements.

Inefficiencies
It will take longer to take the LRT from Kennedy to the STC (where everyone travels to anyways). This must be accounted for with lost revenue. Factor in a transfer and the line pays for itself after 60 years. You must also factor in delays associated with running a line outside, where it is at the mercy of the weather. However, when you consider potential bloor danforth delays, this can potentially be ignored depending on future operation of the line.


With the operators and operations point, was SLRT supposed to use the current yard facility? Or was there to be a new one. Also wasn't the line to be fully automated and run by the Prov - i.e no drivers.

The traction point I think is interesting. And one reason I think a simple Line 3 vehicle upgrade is better than LFLRVs. Flexity Outlook/Freedom is a tank built for street operation. Subway/metro vehicles like the Innovia or TR is way lighter.

a LOT of biased misinformation in here from an angry old man who didnt get his way (as are opinion pieces often)

"No other transit authority bought the system" - Not true, it is the backbone of the Vancouver Skytrain, the Detroit People Mover, the JFK airport connection in New York, and now many other systems as the technology was taken over by Bombardier as their Innovia Metro technology used in South Korea, Malaysia, China, etc etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Innovia_Metro

" It was supposed to be driverless. But drivers had to be added." At the insistence of the TTC. The driverless technology was excellent and has provided safe and reliable transit for decades in Vancouver. Meanwhile, 4 people lost their lives in Toronto from driver error on a TTC subway train in 1995.

The rest I agree with though, sort of. The subway is an epic waste of money, but so is the LRT.

The best bang for buck is and always was to upgrade and refurbish the existing SRT and extend it to Malvern Town Centre.

Unfortunately this opinion piece paints the SRT as some sort of failed and flawed system, so that idea gets thrown under the bus.

Its only failings and flaws are a direct result of the TTC's mismanagement of it. It works fine everywhere else. (ok maybe not Detroit but that is also because the system is woefully underbuilt)

The author definitely plays-down current ridership/demand for Line 3, which is odd and unfortunate - esp considering that he's advocating for SLRT. And with your post I agree, mostly. But I think the supposed TTC mismanagement is more attributable to the City and Prov. If anything the TTC is what's held the line together in spite of higher level decisions and fund re-allocation. The upgrades to newer rolling stock, Kennedy improvement, and Malvern extension were all ready to go well over a decade ago. Maybe two decades. But instead any new major capital funding went to extending U/S to Vaughan. Then Transit City came along, and though "fully funded", the spending wouldn't be seen for Line 3 until a decade later. And even then it was predicated on a ground-up rebuild for LFLRVs. A strange vehicle choice considering the line's fully grade-separate and what's in place now is high-level trains.

TTC will play along with all this, but they obviously don't make the key choices. Same thing with Network 2011. TTC wanted RL first, but Metro wanted Sheppard first (and built as a full-scale subway). So that's what ended up taking priority. Also from what I gather TTC was historically all about lower-cost solutions. It's usually politicians that force the higher-cost alternatives.
 
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It's too late. Subway's coming. Best to focus on ways to improve the current project instead of advocating to start over. The SRT doesn't have a lot of time left.
Even if we put shovels in the ground today, we are looking at completion in 10 years...
 

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