Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[nfitz]

Apart from the fact that Mel Lastman would have yelled bloody murder, it makes sense from the perspective of a decision-maker in 1995 that Sheppard would go ahead and not Eglinton.

The Conservatives had made it quite clear that both were going to be cancelled. That only Eglinton West was, was clearly backing down.

It was 18 years ago, and everything about Toronto: ridership, development and governance was completely different back then. Nobody would have been able to anticipate a forced amalgamation of the Metro municipalities; ridership was at an all-time low (wasn't it around 350M/year?), reeling from the closure of major manufacturing plants (Inglis, GM on the Golden Mile, etc.) and the loss of jobs south of the 401. Gas prices were at an all-time low, and almost all of the growth was being directed to 905 auto-oriented sprawl. If a ridership case could have been made at all, it made more sense, at that time, for a subway along Sheppard. Perhaps it made more sense to keep Sheppard ... but there was little in all that made sense. If anything, it would have made more sense to keep Spadina or even the SRT extension, than either Sheppard or Eglinton.

 

[BurlOak]

Yup, it was still definitely a setback. Phase 1 of the Eglinton West subway was supposed to open around the same time as Sheppard, correct (2000ish)? We would have probably seen both a west extension to Renforth and an east extension to Don Mills either built by now or just finishing up. It would have brought up an interesting debate as to whether the subway should be extended further east to Kennedy or even to STC, or whether the SRT extension/refurb would have been both eastward AND westward to Don Mills.

Ah, what could have been.

Maybe should - not woould.

If Eglinton had been built, then all the money that has been spent on extending the Sheppard Subway in the past 10 years would have been used on Eglinton - which is exactly $0.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Perhaps it made more sense to keep Sheppard ... but there was little in all that made sense. If anything, it would have made more sense to keep Spadina or even the SRT extension, than either Sheppard or Eglinton.

Agreed. I don't know the history, but I never understood why the Spadina line was only extended to Downsview when York University was clearly the goal while two other, entirely new subway lines were proposed, funded and began construction during the same time frame.

 

[nfitz]

Agreed. I don't know the history, but I never understood why the Spadina line was only extended to Downsview when York University was clearly the goal while two other, entirely new subway lines were proposed, funded and began construction during the same time frame.

There's a good history at http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5109.shtml

 

[11th]

Eglinton getting cancelled is probably for the best, because then we would have ended up with a stub with an LRT transfer attached to it. Probably on both ends. At least now we get a single route.

Actually any subway built on the E-W axis in Toronto would have transfers to surface routes (bus or LRT) on both ends. As for it being a stub or not, it depends how much money you want to spend on it to not make it a "stub".

 

[M II A II R II K]

Actually any subway built on the E-W axis in Toronto would have transfers to surface routes (bus or LRT) on both ends. As for it being a stub or not, it depends how much money you want to spend on it to not make it a "stub".

But LRT transfers have a degree of permanence to them.

 

[11th]

But LRT transfers have a degree of permanence to them.

There's still the option of BRT. Maybe that could make the transfers less permanent?

 

[nfitz]

But LRT transfers have a degree of permanence to them.

Like the ones that used to be at the old ends of the Bloor-Danforth line - at Keele and Woodbine stations? Or perhaps the one that used to be built from Bloor station to the platforms in the middle of the street?

 

[gweed123]

Like the ones that used to be at the old ends of the Bloor-Danforth line - at Keele and Woodbine stations? Or perhaps the one that used to be built from Bloor station to the platforms in the middle of the street?

That's not really a fair case study. The streetcar platforms at Keele and Woodbine were always intended to be temporary. In fact, the extensions to Islington and Warden were open only 2 years after the initial Keele-Woodbine stretch. The 3 segments were in fact all under construction at the same time. It was a phasing thing, never intended to be a permanent or semi-permanent (10+ years) solution.

I don't think they're in any way comparable to what would have developed on Eglinton if the subway was built in the 90s, or what is currently planned for Don Mills.

 

[nfitz]

That's not really a fair case study. The streetcar platforms at Keele and Woodbine were always intended to be temporary. In fact, the extensions to Islington and Warden were open only 2 years after the initial Keele-Woodbine stretch. The 3 segments were in fact all under construction at the same time. It was a phasing thing, never intended to be a permanent or semi-permanent (10+ years) solution.

I don't think they're in any way comparable to what would have developed on Eglinton if the subway was built in the 90s, or what is currently planned for Don Mills.

Are you sure?

The whole University-Bloor-Danforth subway extension approved in 1958 had 3 phases. Union to St. George. St. George to Greenwood. And third was St. George-Keele and Greenwood-Woodbine. Ultimately they accelerated Phase 3 and opened it 3 years early, with Phase 2. The 1968 extension to Warden and Islington wasn't approved until much later on.

The platforms at Keele and Woodbine may well have been temporary, but were they really designed and started construction that way? If I was to have thought they'd have been in use for 26 months, I wouldn't have installed moving sidewalks, and the separate exits (at least at Woodbine). At Woodbine, I would have simply used the bus exit, and built a concrete walkway a short distance to the streetcar loop.

While people always talk about these at temporary, I don't think that was in the minds of those who designed it. I expect the thought that went through their head was "well, if we'd have known it was only going to be there 2 years, we would have done that a bit differently". Hindsight is 20/20.

I agree that we wouldn't expect either the new LRT at Don Mills, or what would have been on Eglinton only lasting 2 years ... but I wouldn't assume that the LRT transfers have a degree of permanence to them. The entire $1-billion line might ... but it's the line that does this, not the transfers.

 

[gweed123]

Are you sure?

The whole University-Bloor-Danforth subway extension approved in 1958 had 3 phases. Union to St. George. St. George to Greenwood. And third was St. George-Keele and Greenwood-Woodbine. Ultimately they accelerated Phase 3 and opened it 3 years early, with Phase 2. The 1968 extension to Warden and Islington wasn't approved until much later on.

The platforms at Keele and Woodbine may well have been temporary, but were they really designed and started construction that way? If I was to have thought they'd have been in use for 26 months, I wouldn't have installed moving sidewalks, and the separate exits (at least at Woodbine). At Woodbine, I would have simply used the bus exit, and built a concrete walkway a short distance to the streetcar loop.

While people always talk about these at temporary, I don't think that was in the minds of those who designed it. I expect the thought that went through their head was "well, if we'd have known it was only going to be there 2 years, we would have done that a bit differently". Hindsight is 20/20.

I agree that we wouldn't expect either the new LRT at Don Mills, or what would have been on Eglinton only lasting 2 years ... but I wouldn't assume that the LRT transfers have a degree of permanence to them. The entire $1-billion line might ... but it's the line that does this, not the transfers.

Bloor-Danforth Subway, Keele to Woodbine: Opened February 1966
Keele to Islington: Opened May 1968
Woodbine to Warden: Opened May 1968

All phases of the Bloor-Danforth Subway (excluding University) were under construction at the same time, albeit to varying degrees. The streetcar terminals at Keele and Woodbine were only in operation for a little over 2 years. So yes, they were quite temporary. And Keele had the moving sidewalk, Woodbine did not. I suspect this is because of the distance between the streetcar loop and the station.

 

[M II A II R II K]

They were streetcars though, not ROW LRT. Unless the Sheppard Subway gets extended own the line and gradually eats up the SELRT over time.

 

[nfitz]

All phases of the Bloor-Danforth Subway (excluding University) were under construction at the same time, albeit to varying degrees. The streetcar terminals at Keele and Woodbine were only in operation for a little over 2 years. So yes, they were quite temporary. And Keele had the moving sidewalk, Woodbine did not. I suspect this is because of the distance between the streetcar loop and the station.

But do you really think they would have installed a moving sidewalk if they had planned from day one to only have it in use for 2 years? I'm not that familiar with Keele though ... but Woodbine, why would they have built that extra passageway to the streetcar platform instead of just using the existing stairs to the bus platform, and putting an above-ground walkway in.

There's no way those terminals were designed to be only used for such a short period of time. For 24 months, I'd have not built any streetcar loop, and simply run the service back and forth to the Danforth Carhourse, and let people walk to the corner of Woodbine and Danforth to get a car.

I'm hypothesizing here though ... I have no evidence, beyond the infrastructure itself.

 

[gweed123]

But do you really think they would have installed a moving sidewalk if they had planned from day one to only have it in use for 2 years? I'm not that familiar with Keele though ... but Woodbine, why would they have built that extra passageway to the streetcar platform instead of just using the existing stairs to the bus platform, and putting an above-ground walkway in.

There's no way those terminals were designed to be only used for such a short period of time. For 24 months, I'd have not built any streetcar loop, and simply run the service back and forth to the Danforth Carhourse, and let people walk to the corner of Woodbine and Danforth to get a car.

I'm hypothesizing here though ... I have no evidence, beyond the infrastructure itself.

Maybe they didn't think the funding for Phases 2 and 2A (east and west extensions were really the same phase) would come through quite as quickly as it did. But I suspect it may also be because they didn't want to create a transfer nightmare at those two points, and maybe the extra expense wasn't deemed large enough to not warrant it.

The TTC at that point was also running a profit, so they may have had a different 'passengers first' mindset when it came to designing the transfer stations, even if they were indeed temporary. The 'opulence' I guess you could say is also very present at Islington and Warden, with the massive bus terminals.

 

[11th]

They were streetcars though, not ROW LRT. Unless the Sheppard Subway gets extended own the line and gradually eats up the SELRT over time.

The way they are planning Don Mills, it kills off any possibility - be it underground or elevated. That's why I don't understand why can't they design the transfer as this:

Like the ones that used to be at the old ends of the Bloor-Danforth line - at Keele and Woodbine stations? Or perhaps the one that used to be built from Bloor station to the platforms in the middle of the street?

And because it's ROW LRT, it doesn't require a turnaround loop. Build it as a one-bay terminus stop. (of course this'd have to be done at location such as Victoria Park, and not Don Mills)