nfitz
Superstar
A once every 15-minute train isn't going to have much impact. There isn't the track capacity for a new subway line along the SmartTrack alignment.
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crs1026
Superstar
Ouch. I don't think of myself as Urban or Lefty (I'm kinda straddling the line on both counts). But this description hits home. It is definitely a city wide phenomenon. Scarberians should not feel singled out.
Here in Etobicoke the "system" (which in my viewpoint consists of Community Council, City Council, Committees of Adjustment, and the OMB) is happy to approve condo after condo on the premise that the existing roads will handle them, and no transit solutions are required.
The most gutless, unhelpful people in this are the City Transportation department, who issue absurd opinions that two-land arterial roads that are demonstrably full at rush hour can handle the additional volume. Once this opinion is on the record, there is little hope of blocking an appeal at OMB. Even the Council members know and admit this. Council's role becomes fighting for Section 37 funding, rather than deciding yea or nay.
Then, when one pushes for better transit, nothing happens. A few buses are added to these already full roads.
I'm an LRT fan, but these objections are valid. Spadina is even worse than St Clair. There is no shining example in this city that residents can look at and demand to their councillors "get me one of those" - except subways, unfortunately
Transit City's propenents did take an idealogical, we-know-better approach to promoting an LRT network. Considering that LRT was far less known or understood by the populace ten years ago, it's not surprising that it was not welcomed. A far more productive approach would have been to look at the existing lines and take some bold steps that would make them stellar. None of St Clair or Spadina or Queens Quay have done this.
I hope that Crosstown will work well enough to break that losing streak. I worry that we still aren't there, however - plunking LRT down in the middle of the street with de minimus shelters at each stop, and making it fight auto traffic for priority, is not leading-edge LRT thinking. It's just 1920 streetcar mentality. TTC especially needs to get out of the box here. "Center median is good enough, anything better is a waste of money" will be LRT's downfall.
It will be interesting to see if Hurontario and K-W and eventually London work well enough to turn heads. If they do not, we need to reexamine the whole thing before going any further. There is still a risk that BRT plus subway will present better value.
- Paul
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
It won't aside from freak instances.
The Crosstown will always have signal priority. It should never have to stop at intersections.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I find it frustrating because I get the sense that a lot of people forget that there are real people behind these debates. And quite often, these suburbanites are immigrants who work long hours for low pay, facing 1.5 - 2 hr commutes from the core in each direction.
I certainly wasn't surprised that most of Scarborough voted for the Fords. They have a certain knack for making the downtrodden feel heard. Which is remarkable really, because that's supposed to be the purview of the left!
So happy to see Tory beating Ford at their own game. Malvern may lose out a bit. But Toronto gains a ton with the SSE. There won't be much griping from Scarborough again on subways. I don't even think Sheppard will be as big a deal, if the SSE is in place.
crs1026
Superstar
Quite a few questions that still need to be answered:
- What is the proposed phasing of all of these different transit lines (4 by my count: RER, SmartTrack, B-D extension, SMLRT)?
- How far along was the work on the Scarborough-Malvern LRT before it was dropped? Did it ever even get past "napkin" status?
- Does the city try to push to get Eglinton West and Scarborough-Malvern added to the existing Eglinton DBM contract, or do they tender them completely separately?
- Do they attempt a redesign of the Sheppard East LRT to connect to the subway terminus at STC? Possibly using the old SRT guideway?
bobbob911
Active Member
You should also look at the LRT in Edmonton as an example of how not to do Signal Priority. It can't be an absolute.
salsa
Senior Member
About the last point, is that even true? Will traffic lanes on Eglinton be reduced for the LRT?
cbrown2009
Active Member
At first , that was the plan. But the plan has since been amended to keep 3 lanes of traffic along the Golden Mile intact. So no, traffic lanes will not be reduced.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
I just hope the "transit priority" is not like this:
but we may have to.
but we may have to.
DonValleyRainbow
Senior Member
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The cost is astronomical. But while I would normally support LRT over a subway in Scarborough, I am finding myself favourable to what's being proposed.
What had been proposed by Metrolinx and the province for Scarborough was a dogs breakfast. There were various different services that would go by and/or intersect Scarborough Centre, instead of a simpler grid approach. See below, from Schedule 2 of The Big Move:
With a subway extension along McCowan, and assuming it will get extended to Sheppard, we can clean this up significantly:
Notice how neither the proposed SLRT or the proposed subway follow any substantial clusters, with the exception of Eglinton. Markham Rd is pretty good, but too far. Ideally, you want this appropriate zoning in place before you establish a rapid transit project, which can be challenging when you have established low-density housing. But I suspect this is why Jennifer Keesmat is publicly supportive of the proposal: this can force hands, and fuel land use changes along the subway alignment.
I say cut-and-cover the subway to fuel that change even quicker.
What had been proposed by Metrolinx and the province for Scarborough was a dogs breakfast. There were various different services that would go by and/or intersect Scarborough Centre, instead of a simpler grid approach. See below, from Schedule 2 of The Big Move:
With a subway extension along McCowan, and assuming it will get extended to Sheppard, we can clean this up significantly:
- The subway extension becomes aligned with the McCowan rapid transit corridor, with an interchange at Sheppard (future).
- The Sheppard East subway / LRT will no longer need to have two branches; it can stay along Sheppard to Morningside / Meadowvale.
- We still build the Malvern LRT (although not all the way to Malvern Town Centre yet).
Notice how neither the proposed SLRT or the proposed subway follow any substantial clusters, with the exception of Eglinton. Markham Rd is pretty good, but too far. Ideally, you want this appropriate zoning in place before you establish a rapid transit project, which can be challenging when you have established low-density housing. But I suspect this is why Jennifer Keesmat is publicly supportive of the proposal: this can force hands, and fuel land use changes along the subway alignment.
I say cut-and-cover the subway to fuel that change even quicker.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
modern intensification zoning relies very little on zoning. The Cities zoning by-law is extremely dated and is not compliant with the Growth plan and Official plan, which means it is generally entirely ignored. As of right zoning for a new development is nearly unheard of.
Spicy Garage
New Member
And the ever-popular "So it's okay for a resident of Scarbororugh to freeze his/her ass of in the winter in the winter with an LRT , whilst a downtown resident enjoys the comfort of a subway stop?"
Has anyone found the most effective rebuttal to this argument? Much opposition to LRT is emotion-based and the "freezing" argument is right up that alley.
Spicy Garage
New Member
Your comment really hits home. For years, I've been one of those downtowners, sermoning any and all about the suitability of light-rail for Scarborough, pulling hard numbers out of my Evernote stash, and being quite testy at monosyllabic Nayshunals and their blind repetition of every LRT/subway lie thrown their way. (See? I'm getting testy even now.)
I've tried to get into the mindset of Scarborough and Etobicoke voters since Ford was elected. I would love for you to expand on what, in your opinion, drives these residents. What reasons do they have for opposing appropriate transit that would make much more of a difference to many more of them?