Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[CodeMonkey]

I still don't understand. Are you saying the SLRT was to be tunneled from Midland to Malvern? Because that would be news to me if it was true.

There was a proposal to elevated it, keep it grade separate from traffic awhile ago, but it was dismissed as costly. and tunnelling it would make it as costly as a heavy rail system that is now SSE.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Another SSE article. TorStar loves pumping 'em out:

Want to cancel the Scarborough subway? Convince Queen’s Park

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Another SSE article. TorStar loves pumping 'em out:

Want to cancel the Scarborough subway? Convince Queen’s Park

The Scarborough Caucus is the one pushing this and Sheppard East.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm really interested to see the political show in the fall.

The momentum is definitely pointing towards Council again changing their direction in the fall. I want to see how the province reacts.

They could

1. Respect the new wishes of council and revert to old plan
2. Withhold are their funding for the SSE/SLRT
3. Pay for Toronto's $900M portion of SSE
4. Legislate that City of Toronto pays for their $900M portion of SSE.

I'm betting that Queens Park will either pay for Toronto's portion of SSE, or respect Council's wishes and go back to the SLRT plan. QP politicians have so much wrapped up in their support for this subway that they might end up paying for Toronto's portion.

 

[coffey1]

The Scarborough Caucus is the one pushing this and Sheppard East.

The assault is relentless. Odd how Vaughan doesn't have to deal with a political machine attacking then when its extension is less justified. Not saying the subway is the right decision whatsoever at the same time I also don't believe the SLRT or Sheppard LRT was planned (& funded) effectively to serve Scarborough. So I can see conflict from both sides of the debate of spending huge money on something inadequate & being forced upon you.

But this is pure ugly politics & really only visible to those that live in the Eastern part of the City. The Star continues to pound (just google Scarborough Subway) on a massive area which has minimal financial & media political influence to fight back. Not one article has pushed to take the funding and build a full LRT network around Scarborough or discussed any improvements to the clearly flawed proposed network. These articles do nothing to benefit Scarborough's future.

My issue is not so much with the argument against SSE as some of the valid points they bring to the table, Its the other side of the debate which doesn't receive the media megaphone that bothers me the most in this debacle.

 

[44 North]

The assault is relentless. Odd how Vaughan doesn't have to deal with a political machine attacking then when its extension is less justified. Not saying the subway is the right decision whatsoever at the same time I also don't believe the SLRT or Sheppard LRT was planned (& funded) effectively to serve Scarborough. So I can see conflict from both sides of the debate of spending huge money on something inadequate & being forced upon you.

And don't forget Yonge North. The Scarb Subway makes a helluva lot more sense than pushing an at-capacity line to some scrubland along a toll highway where few would even consider using transit. So where are the pitchforks and smear campaigns for that extension? Or demands for a Scarborough solution (aka a light metro + transfer)?

***
I didn't want to bump the Sheppard Subway or SELRT thread to ask this Q; but considering the Scarboro Caucus could very well reignite the Sheppard Subway debate, is there a consensus as to where an optimal terminus would be for an eastward Sheppard Subway extension? Scarborough Centre makes a lot of sense, and was the original terminus point. But perhaps McCowan/Sheppard may be more logical. Reason I ask is I was drawing a map, and I couldn't help thinking that meeting the SSE's terminus at McCowan might be a better interchange than STC.

 

[GenerationW]

Another SSE article. TorStar loves pumping 'em out:

Want to cancel the Scarborough subway? Convince Queen’s Park

Amazing that Matt Elliot only figured this out now. Has he been asleep for two years?

The Scarborough Caucus is the one pushing this and Sheppard East.

No one is pushing Sheppard East. They only pushed for (and got) the "delay" of the SELRT to leave the door open for a Sheppard extension at a future date.

I'm really interested to see the political show in the fall.

The momentum is definitely pointing towards Council again changing their direction in the fall. I want to see how the province reacts.

They could

1. Respect the new wishes of council and revert to old plan
2. Withhold are their funding for the SSE/SLRT
3. Pay for Toronto's $900M portion of SSE
4. Legislate that City of Toronto pays for their $900M portion of SSE.

I'm betting that Queens Park will either pay for Toronto's portion of SSE, or respect Council's wishes and go back to the SLRT plan. QP politicians have so much wrapped up in their support for this subway that they might end up paying for Toronto's portion.

I think the only momentum going on here is in your fantasy world.

 

[wopchop]

I didn't want to bump the Sheppard Subway or SELRT thread to ask this Q; but considering the Scarboro Caucus could very well reignite the Sheppard Subway debate, is there a consensus as to where an optimal terminus would be for an eastward Sheppard Subway extension? Scarborough Centre makes a lot of sense, and was the original terminus point. But perhaps McCowan/Sheppard may be more logical. Reason I ask is I was drawing a map, and I couldn't help thinking that meeting the SSE's terminus at McCowan might be a better interchange than STC.

I'm starting to think that if DRL-LONG is ever approved and built, it would make more sense to interline Sheppard with it.

 

[sixrings]

I'm more for drl going tofinch

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I'm starting to think that if DRL-LONG is ever approved and built, it would make more sense to interline Sheppard with it.

Agreed. If DRL-LONG and a Sheppard Subway Extension could be sourced together into one contract (one that follows Ontario's AFP process so taxpayers are not on the hook for cost and time overruns, mind you), I think it could reduce some fixed costs, assuming that you tunnel bore the whole way.

But this is where I think the Sheppard Subway Extension has some potential to be cheap, and done right. Instead of tunnel boring, expropriate land along Sheppard to eliminate some of the bullshit single detached houses, do a cut and cover, and then rezone and resell the land for high density development that would support a subway. Potentially reap some significant returns to help fund the construction, and balance your operating budget.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No one is pushing Sheppard East. They only pushed for (and got) the "delay" of the SELRT to leave the door open for a Sheppard extension at a future date.

Do they plan for delay indefinitely?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think the only momentum going on here is in your fantasy world.

I don't know about that.

Last fall, when potential higher than expected costs were revealed, one formerly pro-SSE councillor came out in opposition to the project. Several other pro-SSE councillors announced they were reconsidering the decision. At last count, only one more councillor needed to oppose the SSE to bring upon cancellation.

Since then we've also learned that the SSE will have lower than expected usage.

If the SSE does end up needing a budget higher than the $3 Billion allocated, Council will need to find a way to come up with the money. I've seen $4 Billion price estimates thrown around. I'm not sure how credible they are, but if true it will require the City to double it's contribution. They'll also need to navigate the debt limit issue, as the City is at our 15%-of-property-tax limit. We have major capital issues, such as TCHC, additional orders of LFLRVs and Gardiner East that also need to be budgeted for within the limit. SSE isn't the only issue on the table.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Amazing that Matt Elliot only figured this out now. Has he been asleep for two years?

No one is pushing Sheppard East. They only pushed for (and got) the "delay" of the SELRT to leave the door open for a Sheppard extension at a future date.

I think the only momentum going on here is in your fantasy world.

Enough with the snark. The SELRT cost 1 billion and would take less than three years to build. Well less than three years anywhere else., this is Toronto. And the last Scarborough Subway vote passed council by a measley two votes, hardly a majority. But, it passed so here we are. Everything mentioned here was on Steve Munro's blog six months ago. And the star media, hell they had quotes from Norm Kelly and the like about Sheppard East. Stop repeating the lie that no one cares about Sheppard East. This has always been about both subways, and if you or anyone else thinks otherwise you are kidding your self. If this thing is built, sheppard east is next. The support on council and Queens Park is there for both subways. Otherwise, the SELRT would have been beginning construction right now.

Do they plan for delay indefinitely?

Nope. It will come up after shovels go in the ground for this BD extension.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

And don't forget Yonge North. The Scarb Subway makes a helluva lot more sense than pushing an at-capacity line to some scrubland along a toll highway where few would even consider using transit. So where are the pitchforks and smear campaigns for that extension? Or demands for a Scarborough solution (aka a light metro + transfer)?

***
I didn't want to bump the Sheppard Subway or SELRT thread to ask this Q; but considering the Scarboro Caucus could very well reignite the Sheppard Subway debate, is there a consensus as to where an optimal terminus would be for an eastward Sheppard Subway extension? Scarborough Centre makes a lot of sense, and was the original terminus point. But perhaps McCowan/Sheppard may be more logical. Reason I ask is I was drawing a map, and I couldn't help thinking that meeting the SSE's terminus at McCowan might be a better interchange than STC.

I'm starting to think that if DRL-LONG is ever approved and built, it would make more sense to interline Sheppard with it.

Probably McCowan and Sheppard. Especially if the BD subway retains the Danforth Alignment. Anywhere east would be just too little ridership.

The assault is relentless. Odd how Vaughan doesn't have to deal with a political machine attacking then when its extension is less justified. Not saying the subway is the right decision whatsoever at the same time I also don't believe the SLRT or Sheppard LRT was planned (& funded) effectively to serve Scarborough. So I can see conflict from both sides of the debate of spending huge money on something inadequate & being forced upon you.

But this is pure ugly politics & really only visible to those that live in the Eastern part of the City. The Star continues to pound (just google Scarborough Subway) on a massive area which has minimal financial & media political influence to fight back. Not one article has pushed to take the funding and build a full LRT network around Scarborough or discussed any improvements to the clearly flawed proposed network. These articles do nothing to benefit Scarborough's future.

My issue is not so much with the argument against SSE as some of the valid points they bring to the table, Its the other side of the debate which doesn't receive the media megaphone that bothers me the most in this debacle.

What happened was Sheppard was supposed to be built, in fact it was supposed to be open to Scarborough town centre. But Harris killed it. People laid dormant till Ford and the rest is history. Personally, I have nothing against it like I said to you the last time if people want to pay it (all of us) then we should build them. I personally think either both should be committed too and built or none at all. I don't think the people of Scarborough will be satisfied with one subway. Take a look at this:

I think that is where people in the 416 suburbs want to be at.

 

[GenerationW]

Enough with the snark. The SELRT cost 1 billion and would take less than three years to build. Well less than three years anywhere else., this is Toronto. And the last Scarborough Subway vote passed council by a measley two votes, hardly a majority. But, it passed so here we are. Everything mentioned here was on Steve Munro's blog six months ago. And the star media, hell they had quotes from Norm Kelly and the like about Sheppard East. Stop repeating the lie that no one cares about Sheppard East. This has always been about both subways, and if you or anyone else thinks otherwise you are kidding your self. If this thing is built, sheppard east is next. The support on council and Queens Park is there for both subways. Otherwise, the SELRT would have been beginning construction right now.

Maybe the "snark" got in your eyes because I have no idea what you're disagreeing with. Yes, when the B-D extension is finished, there will be a move for a Sheppard extension. That's basically what I said.

What we won't see is both projects overlapping. No Liberal MPP or councillor will try to get Sheppard on the agenda any time soon because they all know two Scarborough subways at the same time will never fly.

As What happened was Sheppard was supposed to be built, in fact it was supposed to be open to Scarborough town centre. But Harris killed it. People laid dormant till Ford and the rest is history. Personally, I have nothing against it like I said to you the last time if people want to pay it (all of us) then we should build them. I personally think either both should be committed too and built or none at all. I don't think the people of Scarborough will be satisfied with one subway.

If memory serves, it was supposed to be built in two stages -- first to Victoria Park, and then to STC. Harris shortened stage one from V.P. to Don Mills.