Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

This entire thing is bordering on farcical- the most logical solution would be to build and extend the Eglinton East LRT (elevated), connecting to and retracking the existing guideway- saving money and retaining a seamless connection with at least one transit line.

If there's space constraints with double tracking on the GO lines, I'm sure that some slivers of land can be acquired and trackage shifted over. This option would make the best use of an existing infrastructure, avoiding the need to build expensive new infrastructures, as is with the Scarborough subway.

I would not be surprised if the Scarborough Subway is a project that gets cancelled upon the arrival of a more radical mayor- it's moving way too slowly at a time when the area needs transit solutions now.

Provincial Transit Plans Leave More Questions Than Answers

As many of you have heard, Premier Doug Ford announced a new transit plan last week. As the map below shows, the dotted blue lines represent 5 new lines or extensions. While there is merit to aspects of the Premier's proposal, there are more questions than

joshmatlow.ca

Cancelling the LRT extension to Malvern and the SMLRT extension past Military Trail basically cost them the support of Malvern. If I have to bus and transfer anyway, staying on the bus longer is really not that big a deal. This is what Matlow et al. don't get.

As for cancelling it....shortly the province will be controlling the TTC. The next mayor may not have a say.

 

[Hopkins123]

If I am reading that map right was he suggesting we bury the Subway between Vic Park and Kennedy? If he was that is peak lunacy, and its amazing anyone could look at that and say "Yea that's a good plan". If anything we should be finding ways to build more of our Subway/LRT network at grade or above since its cheaper and faster to build. I like how that plan also still shows stops at Ellesmere and Midland.... on a Subway once again proving that man and his supporters had no idea what they were talking about and were and still are best ignored.

You guys are seriously scrutinizing a few typos now as evident that Ford had no plan? Hush!

 

[nfitz]

You guys are seriously scrutinizing a few typos now as evident that Ford had no plan? Hush!

Removing Line 5 entirely is a typo?

 

[Rainforest]

Basically, after the March 2011 announcement of the combined line, everyone Toronto was expecting TTC and Metrolinx to work together. I was expecting in late 2011 or 2012, they would announce some type of mostly elevated line through Scarborough. Unfortunately, Ford left it to TTC and Metrolinx. The former was influenced by Council, and a leader who had mayoralty ambitions. The latter was run by the Provincial Liberals. Between them, they decided the best course of action was to sabotage the Ford plan - in order to hurt Ford. Shortly thereafter, they realized that reverting back to the transfer LRT plan would be political suicide, so they opted for the more expensive subway. The plan didn't quite work out for Karen Stintz, but the Liberals did get another majority from it. At the end of the day, Toronto signed on to the idea that defeating Ford at any cost was worthwhile. And it was obvious that the Ford plan was actually the most cost effective.

I have to dispute this interpretation, on a number of points:

1) The main reason Rob Ford's transit plan fell apart is that he made unrealistic promises of funding the Sheppard subway extension entirely off the development charges. If he or his aides did their homework, they could come up with a plan that's tilted towards more grade-separated transit than what Transit City proposed, but still remain in the realm of possible. Instead, he made promises he obviously could not keep, that triggered a transit rebellion by the councilors.

2) You allege that the Provincial Liberals wanted to topple Ford at all costs, but they had no strong incentive to do so. The provincial elections are separate from the municipal, and the correllation between their results is weak at best. Sure, the Liberals used every trick up their sleeves to stay in power as long as possible, but defeating Ford municipally couldn't be a high priority for them.

3) The Ford's plan to combine ECLRT with SLRT had its own drawbacks, in that it would overload both Eglinton LRT east of Yonge, and Yonge subway south of Eglinton. It is easy for the proponents to praise that plan today. The plan does have some appealing features, while nobody has to deal with the drawbacks as long as the plan isn't implemented.

 

[Hopkins123]

Removing Line 5 entirely is a typo?

Ok, I'll give you that. But... the 2014 reelection campaign was singing an entirely different tune on many fronts:

Rob Ford's Transit Plan | PDF | Passenger Rail Transport | Public Transport

Rob Ford's transit plan

www.scribd.com

 

[BurlOak]

My theory was that Ford was just completely incompetent, didn't even know what existed, and was likely non-functioning because of his substance abuse ... but many of the good folks at Urban Toronto didn't like that. Now they try and pretend that Ford was trying to bury Line 5 ... despite never mentioning it in his campaign ... and too busy drinking himself to death, taking every drug under the sun, and offering up his wife for people to have sex with, to actually formulate any plan - which came did not come from him.

The sad part is that we all agree Ford was about the farthest thing from a transit genius, but he still managed to have the best transit plan in the past decade.

 

[BurlOak]

I have to dispute this interpretation, on a number of points:

1) The main reason Rob Ford's transit plan fell apart is that he made unrealistic promises of funding the Sheppard subway extension entirely off the development charges. If he or his aides did their homework, they could come up with a plan that's tilted towards more grade-separated transit than what Transit City proposed, but still remain in the realm of possible. Instead, he made promises he obviously could not keep, that triggered a transit rebellion by the councilors.

2) You allege that the Provincial Liberals wanted to topple Ford at all costs, but they had no strong incentive to do so. The provincial elections are separate from the municipal, and the correllation between their results is weak at best. Sure, the Liberals used every trick up their sleeves to stay in power as long as possible, but defeating Ford municipally couldn't be a high priority for them.

3) The Ford's plan to combine ECLRT with SLRT had its own drawbacks, in that it would overload both Eglinton LRT east of Yonge, and Yonge subway south of Eglinton. It is easy for the proponents to praise that plan today. The plan does have some appealing features, while nobody has to deal with the drawbacks as long as the plan isn't implemented.

1. Ford traded Eglinton, SRT replacement, SELRT, and FWLRT to Eglinton-Crosstown and Sheppard subway. He did (strongly) tilt towards grade-separated, and left the details up to TTC and Metrolinx. Basically, everyone wins except Rexdale - and with proper planning and the UPE, they could have been accommodated. They were also already getting a 6km shorter bus trip to a subway (Spadina) than before.
2. Ford was the symbol of the Conservative movement at the time. The Liberals had every reason to topple Ford. The provincial Liberals should have been completely dead, but by killing Ford they won a majority. The federal Liberals had an idiot as a leader and rightfully should have been laughed off the electoral map - they won because Ford and Harper were conservatives. Regardless of how many billions of taxpayer dollars this Sheppard subway cost, it is a bargain from a Liberal point of view.
3. Anyone who knew that the DRL was being planned realized that the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT would be the perfect impetus for the DRL. I always said that those who opposed Ford plan also didn't want the DRL to go north of Danforth.

 

[nfitz]

The sad part is that we all agree Ford was about the farthest thing from a transit genius, but he still managed to have the best transit plan in the past decade.

How was completely cancelling Line 5 the best transit plan in the past decade?

You are talking about something that had nothing to do with Ford.

 

[Hopkins123]

How was completely cancelling Line 5 the best transit plan in the past decade?

The Memorandum of Understanding, which came out within a matter of months of that map you're citing, was cancelling Line 5? If anything, it would have resulted in an upgrade to a full subway instead of the semi-at grade LRT line we're winding up with. Think about it, we the public paid over $6.4 billion for a LRT that'll still likely be subject to stopping at red lights once one's trip gets out to Scarborough. Should have just been a subway to begin with.

And all this is for naught because by the 2014 campaign, both Ford brothers were championing a subway across Eglinton, plus Sheppard, Bloor-Danforth and Queen-Pape-Don Mills. Even Finch West was proposed as a grade-separated line.

 

[Rainforest]

Ford traded Eglinton, SRT replacement, SELRT, and FWLRT to Eglinton-Crosstown and Sheppard subway. He did (strongly) tilt towards grade-separated, and left the details up to TTC and Metrolinx. Basically, everyone wins except Rexdale - and with proper planning and the UPE, they could have been accommodated. They were also already getting a 6km shorter bus trip to a subway (Spadina) than before.

We can debate the advantages vs drawbacks of his routes.

But it is an undeniable fact that he promised to fund Sheppard subway entirely from development charges, that he couldn't possibly succeed doing that, and he actually didn't succeed. And that triggered the City Hall transit revolt.

Ford was the symbol of the Conservative movement at the time. The Liberals had every reason to topple Ford. The provincial Liberals should have been completely dead, but by killing Ford they won a majority. The federal Liberals had an idiot as a leader and rightfully should have been laughed off the electoral map - they won because Ford and Harper were conservatives. Regardless of how many billions of taxpayer dollars this Sheppard subway cost, it is a bargain from a Liberal point of view.

Ontario voters are known to prefer opposite parties federally and provincially, and the same pattern could well happen in the provincial vs municipal elections. There is no evidence the Liberals would do worse provincially in 2014 if the outcome of transit debates at the City Hall was different.

Anyone who knew that the DRL was being planned realized that the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT would be the perfect impetus for the DRL. I always said that those who opposed Ford plan also didn't want the DRL to go north of Danforth.

It is true that DRL to Eglinton can address the capacity issues on both Eglinton and Yonge.

However, it is hard to believe that anyone back in 2010/2011 knew that DRL in this configuration will be put forward in 2019. In fact, we still don't know if it will be actually built before 2030.

 

[nfitz]

The Memorandum of Understanding, which came out within a matter of months of that map you're citing, was cancelling Line 5? If anything, it would have resulted in an upgrade to a full subway instead of the semi-at grade LRT line we're winding up with.

It wasn't full subway - it was still LRT. Basically the province said no. The province let Rob Ford do Sheppard.

And eight years later - what has Rob Ford accomplished on Sheppard? Nothing. I don't think he is going to either.

And all this is for naught because by the 2014 campaign, both Ford brothers were championing a subway across Eglinton, plus Sheppard, Bloor-Danforth and Queen-Pape-Don Mills. Even Finch West was proposed as a grade-separated line.

So? Corrupt Doug Ford promised something similar recently, and still failed to deliver. You can't cut, cut, cut, and deliver. It's a smokescreen - what amazes me is that there's anyone gullible enough to fall for such crap in 2010 ... let alone in 2018.

How the saying go ... Fool me once .... but fool me 5 times ...

 

[Islington Express Bus]

Finch West is also under construction. East and west extensions of both Eglinton and Finch are being considered.

Surely stopping Rob Ford's plan to open another Sheppard suwbay station between Bayview and Bessarion was a good thing - who'd support such idiocy?

At least Eglinton as LRT is only worse, but not worst!

Let's put this in perspective ... here is Rob Ford's plan. While some here might want to pretend it involved putting more of Line 5 underground - the reality was, it cancelled Line 5. And Line 6. The sheer lunacy of this plan was shocking. Completely cancelling the Eglinton line? No transit to Malvern. No relief line. No additional subway capacity downtown. Removing streetcars from downtown streets?

For some reason though, it involved extending Line 2 from Main Street to Kennedy. Congratulations Rob Ford - you succeeded!

View attachment 194432

Good lord, did no one tell him that Willowdale is WEST of Bayview?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Finch West is also under construction. East and west extensions of both Eglinton and Finch are being considered.

Surely stopping Rob Ford's plan to open another Sheppard suwbay station between Bayview and Bessarion was a good thing - who'd support such idiocy?

At least Eglinton as LRT is only worse, but not worst!

Let's put this in perspective ... here is Rob Ford's plan. While some here might want to pretend it involved putting more of Line 5 underground - the reality was, it cancelled Line 5. And Line 6. The sheer lunacy of this plan was shocking. Completely cancelling the Eglinton line? No transit to Malvern. No relief line. No additional subway capacity downtown. Removing streetcars from downtown streets?

For some reason though, it involved extending Line 2 from Main Street to Kennedy. Congratulations Rob Ford - you succeeded!

View attachment 194432

I’ve seen kids make better fantasy maps than this. Who’s nephew did this?

 

[syn]

Cancelling the LRT extension to Malvern and the SMLRT extension past Military Trail basically cost them the support of Malvern. If I have to bus and transfer anyway, staying on the bus longer is really not that big a deal. This is what Matlow et al. don't get.

As for cancelling it....shortly the province will be controlling the TTC. The next mayor may not have a say.

I think he does get it - he supported the 7 stop LRT to Malvern.

 

[syn]

Ok, I'll give you that. But... the 2014 reelection campaign was singing an entirely different tune on many fronts:

Rob Ford's Transit Plan | PDF | Passenger Rail Transport | Public Transport

Rob Ford's transit plan

www.scribd.com

Let's see. Ford's "realistic plan" was to

- Bury the Eglinton LRT between Laird and Kennedy.
- Build a Finch West subway line
- Build a Downtown Relief Line
- Extend the Sheppard Subway to Sheppard-McCowan

3 subway lines and burying the Scarborough portion of the Eglinton LRT, 32km of underground subway/transit for $9 billion.

The Fords drew fantasy maps for election purposes, nothing more.