Conservative Immigration Policy

[nfitz]

You go on about rampant bigotry and racism, then suggest you might support the policy - even on the basis that you lacked knowledge of the content. You appear to have a problem in presenting your ideas.

Good grief? We've covered this? I was simply trying to explain why some people might oppose what on the surface may appear to be a good idea?

What on earth is your problem? Why do the moderators continue to allow these personal attacks to continue.

Simplicity would have primarily aided you. Otherwise, your political attitudes and approach come through quite clear.

My beliefs were irrelevent to this thread. Nor are they any secret. I've been quite clear on my beliefs before.

I believe that Steven Harper is a bigot based on his anti-gay comments in the past. I believe that this belief is also rampant within the Conservatives.

I also believe that many suspect the Conservatives of racism.

What's the big deal - this is a pretty common belief? And I've never hidden this. Why do you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on

 

[nfitz]

You have to wonder why the CPC has some of its Members of Parliament rise to defend in the House a conservative blogger who called muslims and aboriginals 'parasites' and blacks 'filthy' and 'illiterate'. I'm talking about Kathy Shaidle, of course. This doesn't say to me that these people are racist, but it does say that they don't particularly abhor racism.

Not condeming clear examples of racism and bigotry does demonstrate that one is racist and bigoted.

As Harper is not a racist as far as I know, I'm sure he'll quickly condemn such actions!

 

[Hydrogen]

My beliefs were irrelevent to this thread.

You bet they are.

Yet you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about them.

 

[doady]

Conservatives just trying ban certain types of immigrants the same way they banned certain types of gay porn. That is what Conservatives do best.

 

[Brandon716]

No offense but that article is just an editorial mouthpiece. If you actually see the work in immigration, it's a different story.

The backlog is lessened but for a different reason; they are just fast-tracking rejection. More and more people are getting rejection letters even though they've been here for quite awhile. The problem with the new rules is that it's arbitrary. Do you really think "common sense" as that article so describes is equal to everybody (*hint: it's not)? Have you seen the manuals and laws for immigration?

The new rules leaves too much *unwritten* power in the hands of the minister. That's the problem and it's causing the worry that the current increase in processing rejection letters is just a backroom instruction from the Minister to the many immigration officers.

What this leads to is unchecked power to discriminate against certain people.

How would you feel if you had to go to court to defend yourself against a charge which can be arbitrarily changed at any time?

For example, say you got a ticket for going 50 in a 45 zone but the guy in front of you was going 70. You go to court to fight this but the law states that it's within the right of the officer to ignore the guy in front of you.

What's unknown to you is that the other guy got a free pass because he was a relative to someone the officer works for yet it is still perfectly legal even though it's an abuse of power.

The letter of the law is supposed to help people decide if they can or can't immigrate to Canada but if the rules are just made-up without having them down in some form (or if they change too often, like every few months) then that breeds unfairness and inconsistency which is against our Charter.

Immigrants are always fighting an uphill battle as public opinion is never in their favour no matter what. It should be up to the law to help them immigrants and not be swayed by popular opinion which is what all politicians are apt to do (allow themselves to do what is popular rather than what is right).

Couldn't have said it better myself. The current setup is rediculous. All I am going to say is this... I am over-qualified to immigrate and was rejected. How much more ready to live in Canada can you be if you are an educated, native English speaking person who wants to come north?

If I'm getting rejected, I can only imagine what people in remote regions who have to go through language courses, can't just drive 5 hours for a job interview or just visit, and etc. are going through if they have a dream to be fulfilled.

Some of the people here who are parading the recent changes either don't understand the immigration policy or can be pretty cold-hearted about the issue.

These immigration changes have ruined a lot of people's lives. It takes years to plan and go through these procedures. I spent 7 years finishing an education, getting years of work experience in a specific category, and when it came time for me to apply the rules were changed.

Its the same thing as telling you to step onto a platform to get onto the train, and before you get onto the train they pull the platform from under your feet and let you fall into a mud pit, while the train pushes on and leaves without you.

Broken dreams, broken promises, and a broken immigration system.

 

[Brandon716]

Conservatives just trying ban certain types of immigrants the same way they banned certain types of gay porn. That is what Conservatives do best.

LOL, how true.

If anyone here wants the cold, hard facts, here they are. The Immigration Minister established new rules to only allow the following worker categories inside Canada for any applications submitted after February 27, 2008. And the rules didn't even come out until nearly December, so for a whole year everyone's application was in limbo. If that isn't executive mismanagement, I don't know what is...

Anyway, here are the 38 categories.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who-instructions.asp#list

This list is very specific, even though I've worked in technical support for years, I don't qualify under 0213 according to the officer that reviewed my application. Technical support - supervisor is under a different NOC code. YET IF I were working as a restaurant cook or better yet - an oil sands vehicle operator - jobs that require much less technical background, my application wouldn't have been denied.

And for those of you reading who think its easy to find a Canadian employer to sponsor an application and wait the year or two it'll take for processing, think again... Its not easy at all.

What employer is going to wait 6 months to 2 years for your application to be processed unless its a highly, highly sensitive job that would have to be high profile in nature (high level science researcher, actor, OR with this government obviously they've prioritized the canadian oil industry with some of their categories).

The fact is when most people talk about immigration, people do not understand how painfully hard it is unless you have family involved who has already immigrated.

The ONLY positive change the Conservative government has made is in regards to students who graduate university and can then more easily apply.

But that does NOT make up for the very bad decisions in other areas of policy.

There are so many immigrants to Canada that I'm sure actual immigration numbers won't be going down too much, but rather only people in these categories will be let in.

So under the Harper government's rules, someone who is a chef can immigrate, yet someone who has managed 40 people and trained them on technical support services cannot immigrate.

That's why the new rules are arbitrary, if you want 'hard evidence' as certain individuals cry for.

It used to be that you could apply under any job category and be judged individually. So long as you passed the security requirements, could demonstrate you knew one of the two official languages, and had enough experience in terms of education and/or work experience you could get in after a year or two, unless you apply from india or some of the few nation with serious backlogging.

And a point entirely unnoticed in this discussion is why the backlog grew. Canada is a great nation, and its become highly popular in the world for resettlement. Canada is 10 times more popular as a destination today than it was 20 years ago. (in contrast, since I'm an American, I will tell you that the image and desire to move to America isn't as a strong as it was 20 years ago) The solution to this 'problem' of popularity is to double your immigration review officers, not reduce categories to 38 jobs and only doing one positive thing... Helping students settle in a land they invested tens of thousands into educating themselves in.

 

[Brandon716]

Copied this from my immigration discussion in general issues:

I just realized how much bullshit this new Canadian Experience Class is.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/cec/apply-who.asp

According to the actual web site, you have to have graduated from a Canadian college or university AND work 1 full year in a field (although it doesn't look like the list is limited to the 38 categories at a first glance).

This is total bullshit, because you could ALREADY apply for a work permit under the old system and as long as you had a year of experience you were pretty much guaranteed immigration.

Students are not allowed to work full time in Canada unless they get a work permit, I've talked with international students already.

So the only positive thing the new immigration system has created is a farce.

Lets be clear. You cannot immigrate to Canada automatically just by graduating from a Canadian university or college. You have to find an employer willing to work with you and hire you on a SEPARATE work permit.

I can apply for a work permit if a potential employer hires me without a Canadian education.

 

[Brandon716]

I am just glad there's movement on this front. It's ridiculous that a qualified migrant or entrepreneur has to wait years for a visa, while we spend time processing family class migrants. Clearing the queue for family class migrants is not going to make it any better either. As afransen pointed out, you'll just enter the conundrum of attracting more applicants as the line gets shorter. In that scenario, we might as well expedite those who have the most to offer Canada.

Canada doesn't offer visas. It offers work permits, student permits, and permanent resident cards among a few other specialized categories.

Visas are a US immigration thing.

 

[kEiThZ]

Canada doesn't offer visas. It offers work permits, student permits, and permanent resident cards among a few other specialized categories.

Visas are a US immigration thing.

I came over in an era when they referred to as visas...some still are visit visas for example. But you are right, I should be more specific in my terminology.

 

[jade_lee]

I wonder how many people live in Canada with only landed immigrant status? You know those citizens who could not care less about who we elect to lead.

"I came over in an era when they referred to as visas...some still are visit visas for example. But you are right, I should be more specific in my terminology." KEIthZ
Reply With Quote: Did you arrive here as a visitor initially?

 

[nfitz]

You bet they are.

Yet you go ... on about them.

Are you absolutely and completely insane? Your the one who kept raising my beliefs! I didn't even mention them until you started challenging them - and stating (incorrectly) what my views are.

 

[Brandon716]

To be honest, citizenship is not that big of a deal. Its really an honor code system, if you show up at an election and claim you are a citizen, as long as you have a proper Social Insurance Number, a valid state form of ID you can vote.

Citizenship is required by law, but very few voting administrators bother checking for citizenship status. Its almost impossible to do when you're dealing with huge lines.

Getting back to the immigration topic at hand... What bothers me most about the Harper government is that they are being very pretentious about immigration. They ran a series of advertisements parading the idea that they are "fixing" immigration to be more fair, more quick. And they took credit for lowering the landing fee even though that idea was suggested by a previous government.

The truth is that the Canadian Experience Class is not necessary, it is more like a marketing tool to say "look, we created this new immigration class to make it easier" when it really didn't change anything.

A matter of fact, under the OLD system as long as you had 12 months of work permit experience, you could apply as a Skilled Worker Immigrant and pretty much be guaranteed immigration. Under the new Canadian Experience Class its now two years of experience, so in actuality its become HARDER for people to immigrate who are already in Canada.

And I didn't realize until reading the rules earlier today there is no guarantee for students. They have to apply for a separate work permit, completely independent of their student permit, and work in Canada for a whole year.

They do have a benefit of living in Canada on a student permit, so its easier for an employer's HR department to consider them I'm sure, but it does not make it easier.

Its a smoke screen to try and make the Harper government look like its actually doing something, when in fact they made it harder for workers because it now takes 2 years instead of 1.

There are only two truly great things that have come out of the changes: the fee was dropped to $550 from nearly $1000. And it does take less time to at least get a rejection so you can try and apply again. The backlog is temporarily gone for now... I do emphasize temporary, because there are millions of people around the world doing new jobs to classify under the new system, and after a year's time the backlog will start to grow again.

But the Harper system is arbitrary, I could see them altering the rules just to reject a bunch of new people.

That is not a fair immigration system, its avoiding the problem of needing to hire more immigration officers to process applications and give everyone a fair chance.

I repeat: Canada's popularity is not a party vs party issue. This isn't about Liberal policy from the previous 12 years vs the current 3 year Conservative government. Its about Canada becoming very popular and the current Harper government chose the wrong way to handle the situation.

 

[nfitz]

Indeed - the whole citizenship issue is not really relevent to immigration policy - many immigrants live out their lives here without ever becoming citizens.

 

[Brandon716]

I want to comment about the fact that people on here may have had friends who have benefited with the new rules.

If someone has at least 12 consecutive months of experience with one employer that qualifies under the 38 categories I listed earlier, yes, that person has benefited from the new system.

But those people are the only people who have had any benefit from this new system. The Canadian Experience Class is just a new way to file for something that was already possible, and in fact makes it slower for individuals under a work permit. It now takes 2 years instead of 1 year of experience to qualify.

So if someone who wants to come to Canada is lucky enough to have 12 months of experience under the 38 categories, yes, they benefit not only from the fact of their job title, but the fact is it gets processed extremely quickly.

These are the only people who benefit from this new system.

My question is what about the other tens of thousands of job titles that are being arbitrarily rejected, people who have so much to contribute to Canadian society?

This is why Harper's government dangerously changed immigration, for the worse, and its unprecedented in Canadian history. No other government has limited the types of people who can come in to such a narrow set of categories. I know a lot of people on here aren't familiar with immigration law, but those 38 categories are very strict. If an immigration officer can find a different title to classify your experience, they will take away your years of experience if you request a category in the list of 38, and thus invalidate your application.

Its a big, horrendous mess right now. It also bothers me that some of you genuinely think this immigration system is better, its the first time categories of immigrants have been reduced to such a small amount and the pipe narrowed this small. Its really bad for Canada, IMO. There is no reason why only people in those 38 categories should be considered and everyone else automatically rejected.

 

[kEiThZ]

Brandon,

Although I sincerely feel sorry for the pickle you are in, I would disagree that all the changes have been negative.

The student path to permanent residency is a positive development. Prior to this program, when your student visa expired you had to leave the country. If you got a job and wished to stay, you still had to leave an re-apply from outside the country. Now, you graduate and apply for a work permit which is pretty much automatically granted. My parents are housing two students right now. One graduated and got her work permit within 3 weeks of applying. Now she has one year to land a job that's remotely related to her field of study and she'll be given permanent residency. That's a far cry from what students went through earlier....and I do know students who did have to leave Canada after graduation and re-apply for entry.

Perhaps its perspective. I know immigration officers and staff who praise the new policies. And I know quite a few friends and relatives who have directly benefited from this policy. So maybe that tints the colour of my glasses a little. As it stands, I think the new policies are fairly beneficial both to Canada and those seeking residency here. I am willing to put money that not much of this is going to change even when the Liberals come back.

The categories for example, are much better than the older system where you had a specific occupation. That might have worked a tad better for the applicant but it was disastrous for the country. Our government could not constantly assess the demand for that many occupations and then match them up to applications and then get those immigrants over in time to meet those demands. Grouping occupations into more generic categories, is much better over the long run. It helps migrants who have broader experiences in their field qualify and it makes it a hell of a lot easier for the government to actually collect accurate stats and more efffectively target shortfalls in our labour market.

Ultimately, I really do think that the Conservatives understand that they, like the Liberals, will have to attract immigrants, for the good of the country and the good of their party. I will even be so cynical as to suggest that the Conservatives might actually benefit more from a successful immigration policy in the long run. Immigrants (particularly those not from western countries) after all tend to have more conservative values that are more in live with the Conservatives. If I were a Conservative PM I would work hard to bring in more Indians, Chinese, South-East Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants and make sure that they knew that their migration was because of a Conservative immigration policy. That would be virtually the same effect that Trudeau had on the attitudes of non-white immigrants. Defienbaker opened up immigration to non-whites, but it was Trudeau who gave it that Liberal stamp by fully embracing multi-culturalism. That single polcy made immigration the domain of the Liberals for decades to come. If the Conservatives have any brains they should be planning something like that in a backroom in Ottawa right now.