commuter Bus/Rail Kitchener London and Hamilton: Ideas

[kalis0490]

Kitchener London, Hamilton are large cities and will have mass transit options. In Europe, they would also have their own S-bahn type system with 15 minute frequencies all day. this thread is for commuter Bus/Rail fantasies for Kitchener London and Hamilton

What inspired this:

I'd say it would be fairly well used if a DMU/Light rail Electrified service between Kitchener and Guelph was created. It could run somewhat like the Ottawa Trillium line or UPX and serve more of a local transit market. There are already plenty of people taking GO between Kitchener and Guelph, why not expand that?


View attachment 171095
Clear stops are stop request, full images are guaranteed stops. It kind of makes me think of the Norristown High Speed Line in Philadelphia.

 

[Sunnyside]

Great idea. I have a bunch of ideas for connecting these communities, I’m glad you created a thread. I’ll try to make something presentable now that there is one.

 

[drum118]

If you look at Europe, you will find intercity service at various time levels, but mostly around hourly service and connect to one or more city. A large number of the smaller cities and towns have their intercity service severing the surround areas at different quality headway based on ridership.

Type of equipment play a huge part in providing quality of service from 2-5 car articulate car trains to 2-4 3-5 trains sets as one train. Some of these 2-4 train sets that split into 1-3 sets along a route based on distance and ridership as well quality of service. Some of these trains are single level, but mostly DD trains.

Some lines will see service from 60 minutes to 4 hours headway base on service demand.

Most lines are EMU, but a number required DMU for part or all of the line.

The biggest issues for Ontario and NA is the owner of the rail corridor that will cause quality of service to be the pits. Then there is the lack of rail corridor to connect cities and towns to the point you can't provide rail service to the point buses is the best thing you can use. Freight is the top dog on single tracks network with some 2-4 tracks in various locations. Unless money is invested by X to build a 2th to 4th track network, the RR will call the shots how quality on intercity will take place. Only have to look at the Milton line to see the current issue as well service west of Burlington.

GO can provide the current intercity service like they do today as the backbone, but who will provide the service to build a network that will branch out from various cities and towns at what cost??

Without building new lines or relay tracks on existing ROW where rail has been removed, you are stuck with using buses.

Hamilton, London Windsor, St Catharines are places you need to have feeder lines to surrounding towns and cities.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Okay here’s my rail solution for connecting Waterloo Region and Hamilton… a 21st century interurban line. Both Waterloo (ION Stage 1 and Stage 2) and the Hamilton LRT will give the two city regions a solid rapid transit backbone. One could essentially link the two systems with an interurban line, which would also operate on the full length of both ION and Hamilton LRT.

You would get specific rolling stock for this service that is compatible both the existing systems but can also achieve 100 km/h, and have seating better suited for the long distance. Because “light rail” can do grades steeper than heavy rail, it makes setting up the new countryside right of way easier. In the countryside, you’d run it in its own right of way where you can achieve higher speeds. Trains would run every half hour ish, and within each city they could be used for local transit too (since you can’t bypass existing city stops).

Not 100% sure on a specific alignment, but maybe through Dundas and and along Highway 8. Regular Hamilton LRT service could be extended to Dundas and terminate at a future Dundas Peak GO station on a Brantford GO Extension. Would love people‘s thoughts on the Waterloo Region - Hamilton Interurban!

 

[KhalilHeron]

Okay here’s my rail solution for connecting Waterloo Region and Hamilton… a 21st century interurban line. Both Waterloo (ION Stage 1 and Stage 2) and the Hamilton LRT will give the two city regions a solid rapid transit backbone. One could essentially link the two systems with an interurban line, which would also operate on the full length of both ION and Hamilton LRT.

You would get specific rolling stock for this service that is compatible both the existing systems but can also achieve 100 km/h, and have seating better suited for the long distance. Because “light rail” can do grades steeper than heavy rail, it makes setting up the new countryside right of way easier. In the countryside, you’d run it in its own right of way where you can achieve higher speeds. Trains would run every half hour ish, and within each city they could be used for local transit too (since you can’t bypass existing city stops).

Not 100% sure on a specific alignment, but maybe through Dundas and and along Highway 8. Regular Hamilton LRT service could be extended to Dundas and terminate at a future Dundas Peak GO station on a Brantford GO Extension. Would love people‘s thoughts on the Waterloo Region - Hamilton Interurban!

There are tonnes of abandoned railway alignments between the cities and towns in the area, many of which have been tuned into trails. These could pretty easily have new tracks laid down, and maybe trails can be rebuilt alongside if they get good use. Could even be single track (with room to expand) between cities as they are all relatively close and you wouldn't need too many passing loops outside of town.

 

[kalis0490]

There are tonnes of abandoned railway alignments between the cities and towns in the area, many of which have been tuned into trails. These could pretty easily have new tracks laid down, and maybe trails can be rebuilt alongside if they get good use. Could even be single track (with room to expand) between cities as they are all relatively close and you wouldn't need too many passing loops outside of town.

Okay here’s my rail solution for connecting Waterloo Region and Hamilton… a 21st century interurban line. Both Waterloo (ION Stage 1 and Stage 2) and the Hamilton LRT will give the two city regions a solid rapid transit backbone. One could essentially link the two systems with an interurban line, which would also operate on the full length of both ION and Hamilton LRT.

You would get specific rolling stock for this service that is compatible both the existing systems but can also achieve 100 km/h, and have seating better suited for the long distance. Because “light rail” can do grades steeper than heavy rail, it makes setting up the new countryside right of way easier. In the countryside, you’d run it in its own right of way where you can achieve higher speeds. Trains would run every half hour ish, and within each city they could be used for local transit too (since you can’t bypass existing city stops).

Not 100% sure on a specific alignment, but maybe through Dundas and and along Highway 8. Regular Hamilton LRT service could be extended to Dundas and terminate at a future Dundas Peak GO station on a Brantford GO Extension. Would love people‘s thoughts on the Waterloo Region - Hamilton Interurban!

There are Cambridge Brantford and Brantford -hamilton rail trail corridors. These should take one from he ion to the Hamilton lrt. these were previously interurban routes actually. You might be interested in the Grand River Railway which is pretty much what you describe

 

[LemonCondo]

I support making an ION - Hamilton LRT Interurban.

Maybe using that rail trail and hitting Paris and Brantford along the way? As long as it was fast enough for that to not be too long of a journey.

You would want to smooth it out in some places:

 

[robmausser]

There is plans for a DMU from Guelph to Cambridge as a solution to no Cambridge GO service, using the Hespeler Sub. This service could then be expanded into a larger system that visits London, Kitchener, Hamilton, Brantford etc.

https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/living-here/resources/Transportation-Master-Plan/DOCS_ADMIN-3637986-v1-Cambridge_to_Union_GO_Study_Phase_2_Report_Final_Feb_2021.pdf

 

[LemonCondo]

I support making an ION - Hamilton LRT Interurban.

There is plans for a DMU from Guelph to Cambridge as a solution to no Cambridge GO service, using the Hespeler Sub. This service could then be expanded into a larger system that visits London, Kitchener, Hamilton, Brantford etc.

https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/living-here/resources/Transportation-Master-Plan/DOCS_ADMIN-3637986-v1-Cambridge_to_Union_GO_Study_Phase_2_Report_Final_Feb_2021.pdf

Make it a DEMU at least. Like the new trains they have for Line 2 on the O-Train.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Make it a DEMU at least. Like the new trains they have for Line 2 on the O-Train.

This line really IS the perfect application for battery electric with in motion charging.

 

[robmausser]

Here's my opinion after thinking about this yesterday: I don't really see a need for a unique service between most of these cities. I think that as long as the planned services come to fruition, there would be enough separate services that would make connectivity between most of these cities decent enough:

Existing/planned:

London to Kitchener to Guelph: As long as we get all day 2 way + weekend GO service as promised, regular GO trains will cover this. I believe Metrolinx should buy the GEXR sub between London and Kitchener and repair it to Class 5 or 6 rail. Hourly GO train service would be enough in this area.

Kitchener to Cambridge: the ION LRT extension will be the solution here.

Cambridge to Guelph: As I posted earlier, the Cambridge GO DMU between Cambridge and Guelph, if built, will solve the transit between these cities.

London to Brantford to Hamilton: Upgraded VIA service could be used here. However, it bypasses Hamilton. Aldershot station is not really a solution. Either using an old rail right of way to get into Hamilton, or extending the Hamilton LRT to a new station in Dundas could be the solution here.

New:

Hamilton to Guelph: There are existing tracks between the cities, but part of it is a CP mainline. I could see the Cambridge GO DMU being extended to go down to Hamilton to Guelph to provide this connection, probably with new track next to the CP mainline.

Hamilton to Cambridge/ Cambridge to Brantford: The most difficult proposition. There is an old right of way that could possibly be re-activated, but not sure if the demand warrants it. Of all things this would probably be a bus service.

 

[LemonCondo]

This line really IS the perfect application for battery electric with in motion charging.

Battery trains are kind of a meme. Why not just DEMUs or go the full way and just make an electrified tram-train line?

 

[kalis0490]

@robmausser I think the big thing is we need to add stations between Stratford and kitchener. I know plenty of people who live here and commute to dt kitchener. I think 30 min off peak frequency would be good. (rather than the hourly proposed)

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Battery trains are kind of a meme. Why not just DEMUs or go the full way and just make an electrified tram-train line?

In this case because tram trains would let you use Ion trackage on Hespeler road to electrify the service with no further electrification….

the meme isn’t battery trains, it’s battery trains replacing conventional electrification where it’s totally appropriate. At the end of the day, even with the highest speed option and full 4 tph frequency, Guelph - Cambridge is still a single track branch line with traffic volumes buses could handle.

 

[blacksquirrels]

Here's my opinion after thinking about this yesterday: I don't really see a need for a unique service between most of these cities. I think that as long as the planned services come to fruition, there would be enough separate services that would make connectivity between most of these cities decent enough:

Existing/planned:

London to Kitchener to Guelph: As long as we get all day 2 way + weekend GO service as promised, regular GO trains will cover this. I believe Metrolinx should buy the GEXR sub between London and Kitchener and repair it to Class 5 or 6 rail. Hourly GO train service would be enough in this area.

Kitchener to Cambridge: the ION LRT extension will be the solution here.

Cambridge to Guelph: As I posted earlier, the Cambridge GO DMU between Cambridge and Guelph, if built, will solve the transit between these cities.

London to Brantford to Hamilton: Upgraded VIA service could be used here. However, it bypasses Hamilton. Aldershot station is not really a solution. Either using an old rail right of way to get into Hamilton, or extending the Hamilton LRT to a new station in Dundas could be the solution here.

New:

Hamilton to Guelph: There are existing tracks between the cities, but part of it is a CP mainline. I could see the Cambridge GO DMU being extended to go down to Hamilton to Guelph to provide this connection, probably with new track next to the CP mainline.

Hamilton to Cambridge/ Cambridge to Brantford: The most difficult proposition. There is an old right of way that could possibly be re-activated, but not sure if the demand warrants it. Of all things this would probably be a bus service.

It would be great if there was a connection between Hamilton and Kitchener via Guelph as you described.