G
gabe
Guest
I know i say the same thing about cars racing all over the downtown streets, I'm concerned there will be a car crash and kill someone on a bike or someone crossing the street.
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CNE Air Show
- Thread starter Roy G Biv
- Start date
I know i say the same thing about cars racing all over the downtown streets, I'm concerned there will be a car crash and kill someone on a bike or someone crossing the street.
nfitz
Superstar
Fair enough. I'm quite in favour of virtually banning such vehicles from most of downtown, if they don't have a really good reason to be there (i.e. carrying equipment, goods, materials ...) ... which are really the minority. The minority of those who selfishly drive into downtown only slow the majority of us on transit down.
Marcanadian
Moderator
I might as well post some pictures here from today. Just for the record, I disagree with the thread starter. It's only 3 days, not much to get worked up about.
kEiThZ
Superstar
It's obvious from the posts here that most of you are unfamiliar with air shows, air demonstration rules, military aviation, etc.
First off, it's normal to fly a "few hundred feet" over an obstacle. Transport Canada normally only requires an aircraft to normally fly only 500 feet over the height of known obstacles within 2 miles of the aircraft. Military pilots, trained in low level flying routinely train for 200 feet off the ground. Though, they generally avoid such low flying in urban areas so as not to scare the crap out of the locals. If you want to see close, find a Hornet low level navigation training route in the Rockies.
Next, for the manouvering you observe. It's unlikely that you'll see any aircraft doing loops over populated areas. That's all done over the water or over strictly defined (usually unpopulated) areas such as airport runways, parking lots or parade grounds. However, for most military operators, formation flying and steep turns (or steep for a civvy pilot) are normal operating procedure. In fact, military aircraft often depart, fly a mission, and land in formation. The pilots are trained to do that and often actually prefer operating that way. It's normal operating procedure and not considered risky in the aviation business (compared to say certain air show aerobatics). Military aviators who use formations to combat threats as a group would hardly find formation flying over an urban area to be challenging. In fact, I dare say most would not notice any difference.
Urbandreamer's picture of the Hornet doing a 60 and 2 (60 degrees bank and 2G level turn) is a perfectly normal and safe manouver for a military aircraft. In fact, they do it right before they land. Indeed, till they closed Downsview, it was not uncommon to have military fighters do just such manoeuvers over the city if they used Downsview as a transit airfield. And again, where were the complaints when fully armed CF-18s were performing just such manouvers over the city after 9/11. Did anybody notice then?Such moves may seem extreme for a civvy (it would be like a roller coaster turn 30-60 seconds before an airplane touced down) but it's normal for military aircraft. Now if you saw a Cessna or a Westjet aircraft do that over downtown then you should be worried.
Beyond that air shows and air demonstrations often write strict operating procedures for the show that define ingress and egress routes, marshalling areas, diversion routes and airports, emergency operating areas, etc. All of these are first and foremost to ensure the safety of those on the ground, and next of the air crew operating in a tight airspace. I am generally far more concerned about the crowd of traffic choppers that operate during rush hours in Toronto. Their unscripted manouvering bothers me a lot more.
The Toronto airshow remains one of the safest around. So relax and enjoy it.
First off, it's normal to fly a "few hundred feet" over an obstacle. Transport Canada normally only requires an aircraft to normally fly only 500 feet over the height of known obstacles within 2 miles of the aircraft. Military pilots, trained in low level flying routinely train for 200 feet off the ground. Though, they generally avoid such low flying in urban areas so as not to scare the crap out of the locals. If you want to see close, find a Hornet low level navigation training route in the Rockies.
Next, for the manouvering you observe. It's unlikely that you'll see any aircraft doing loops over populated areas. That's all done over the water or over strictly defined (usually unpopulated) areas such as airport runways, parking lots or parade grounds. However, for most military operators, formation flying and steep turns (or steep for a civvy pilot) are normal operating procedure. In fact, military aircraft often depart, fly a mission, and land in formation. The pilots are trained to do that and often actually prefer operating that way. It's normal operating procedure and not considered risky in the aviation business (compared to say certain air show aerobatics). Military aviators who use formations to combat threats as a group would hardly find formation flying over an urban area to be challenging. In fact, I dare say most would not notice any difference.
Urbandreamer's picture of the Hornet doing a 60 and 2 (60 degrees bank and 2G level turn) is a perfectly normal and safe manouver for a military aircraft. In fact, they do it right before they land. Indeed, till they closed Downsview, it was not uncommon to have military fighters do just such manoeuvers over the city if they used Downsview as a transit airfield. And again, where were the complaints when fully armed CF-18s were performing just such manouvers over the city after 9/11. Did anybody notice then?Such moves may seem extreme for a civvy (it would be like a roller coaster turn 30-60 seconds before an airplane touced down) but it's normal for military aircraft. Now if you saw a Cessna or a Westjet aircraft do that over downtown then you should be worried.
Beyond that air shows and air demonstrations often write strict operating procedures for the show that define ingress and egress routes, marshalling areas, diversion routes and airports, emergency operating areas, etc. All of these are first and foremost to ensure the safety of those on the ground, and next of the air crew operating in a tight airspace. I am generally far more concerned about the crowd of traffic choppers that operate during rush hours in Toronto. Their unscripted manouvering bothers me a lot more.
The Toronto airshow remains one of the safest around. So relax and enjoy it.
nfitz
Superstar
Well said ... now if only people would stop the ridiculous whinging about the island airport.
Marko
Active Member
My company is located just west of Pearson, east of Dixie, and we certainly hear them during take off. My employees are like "WTF is Marko running outside for!?". I was never a plane buff, bit seeing these military jets up close is pretty awesome. They are parked at the north end along Derry, with the Blue Angels being the most visible as you drive by. I got out of my car to get a closer look and took time to watch people going by in cars - I can't tell you how many wide eyed, open jawed drivers there were. It was funny to watch, even though it's only a partial view. There have been crowds of people making special trips to get a peek many with kids.
OT - I've noticed a whole lot more people plan watching lately. The Emirates Airbus A380 has caused a huge uptick in observers.
They are staged from Pearson so they *have to* fly over land just to get to the lake. They do seem low, but their size really plays tricks with your perception - they get up in altitude in a hurry.
I can only imagine the complaints from the anti-Porter people if they were staged from the island airport - but this would be he ideal staging ground to avoid them flying over the city at all.
It's only a few days a year, and it's not like they're 100 feet off the ground shaking homes at the foundation. They *DO* fly very close to our shop and it's nowhere near as bad as some of the complaints I've read in the papers and such. If you want tranquility, you're living in the wrong place.
OT - I've noticed a whole lot more people plan watching lately. The Emirates Airbus A380 has caused a huge uptick in observers.
They are staged from Pearson so they *have to* fly over land just to get to the lake. They do seem low, but their size really plays tricks with your perception - they get up in altitude in a hurry.
I can only imagine the complaints from the anti-Porter people if they were staged from the island airport - but this would be he ideal staging ground to avoid them flying over the city at all.
It's only a few days a year, and it's not like they're 100 feet off the ground shaking homes at the foundation. They *DO* fly very close to our shop and it's nowhere near as bad as some of the complaints I've read in the papers and such. If you want tranquility, you're living in the wrong place.
AKS
Senior Member
yes cars is a big concern. My friend and my cousin at different occasions almost got ran over by cars making turns when the light turns green and they are about to cross the street.
Also, racing cars is a problem too. I was going uptown which usually takes 15-20 minutes but ended up taking 2 hours or more because there was an accident away up ahead. Later I found out two cars were racing and one fell off the cliff. The police closed off the section causing traffic to back up a long way back on the DVP.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Whats wrong with planes flying over the city, as long as all maneuvers and performances are done in the so called Air Box.
I think you may be dumb for thinking that this Air show that has been going on since 1949 (60 years) in Toronto has no concept.
The "Air Box" - The air show takes place inside an area called the air box. Although at times during the show some aircraft move outside this box, this is only so they can reposition to accommodate their performance inside the box. This box is 6,000 feet long by 3,000 ft wide and 4,000 ft high. During show times, this area is kept "sterile" and only boats and people or aircraft specifically cleared into this space are allowed to be there during any performance. Only "essential" personnel will be cleared into the space. Inside this box there is a high speed flightline (1,500 ft from any spectators) where the fast aircraft perform and a slow speed flightline (600 feet from any spectator) where slower aircraft perform.
egotrippin
Senior Member
Sensational pictures, fighter jets are absolutely beautiful. The F-18s and F-22s are among my favourite pieces of machinery humans have created. I am still kicking myself for forgetting my camera when I went to the show. The F22 was amazing when it used its thrust vectoring and practically came to a standstill in midair. I wouldn't be upset if we had jets flying around every day of the year.
Mustapha
Senior Member
Those are sensational pictures of the air show thank you. The Blue Angels flew in very tight formations - like they were tied together - great to watch. The F18 aircraft made a terrific noise; all in all a great show. I saw them on Saturday from within the CNE grounds. On Monday the missus and I went and we watched it all again from the steps of the Medieval Times. Didn't have to pay a couple of admissions; the Ex not being her 'thing' anyways.
Marko
Active Member
I took in the show yesterday from the Palace Pier area, near the pedestrian bridge - which is where the F18s made a lot of their turns and regrouped to head back over the lake. I was actually surprised at how low they came to the ground (though still 400' or more), or how close to some buildings (including Palace Pier) - but at no point did it seem that they were doing anything potentially unsafe.
Looking along the shore in both directions and knowing there were more at the CNE and along QQ, there had to be at least 100,000 spectators out for the free show. I'm going to plan a little better next year and maybe see it twice - from different locations.
Looking along the shore in both directions and knowing there were more at the CNE and along QQ, there had to be at least 100,000 spectators out for the free show. I'm going to plan a little better next year and maybe see it twice - from different locations.
Edward
Senior Member
Air Show was great. Shows you how lucky we are to live in a safe place. Imagine living in a war zone with these things flying by all the time.
nfitz
Superstar
Living in England - and presumably many places in Europe - it's routine to see low-flying fighter jets over towns; or at least it was in the cold war ... can't say I've noticed it as much the last few times I've been there.
Roy G Biv
Senior Member
I don't think I ever argued about a lack of concept. Thank you for enlightening me to the wonders of the "air box".
All I'm saying is do it above the lake. The Gardiner almost turned into a demolition derby when the planes in formation zipped across it 10 times. Also, I had passengers from Germany who's town was once decimated by an airshow disaster, so having them freak out in the back didn't help.
Also, I wanted to see if KeiTHz knew everything in the world about air-shows and related manouvers. I was not disappointed.
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