Clean Train Coalition: Petition

[rbt]

most cities are moving to electrification, and very few use diesel trains, so who would buy these already outdated diesel trains.
spend the money today to electrify.
think of the healthcare savings and all the benefits if electrification is done today.

I can think of 2 agencies in Southern Ontario that would use them. GO Transit, not everything from Orillia to Peterborough to Niagara Falls to London will be electrified, as many of the outer portions of these routes will be well under 30 frequencies service within 20 years (lifespan of the current engines).

VIA is the second with low frequency, long haul routes who will be able to make use of a couple dozen good engines in 10 years.

The lifespan of new engines is less than 30 years. By the time Niagara Falls warrants electrification this batch of engines will be long gone.

 

[EnviroTO]

Electric locomotives are not necessarily slower than a EMU train, they just can't accelerate as fast because there is less traction available, for a frequently stopping GO train faster acceleration means faster overall speed, on a TGV line the difference is negligible because it makes very few stops.

I don't know which method would be cheaper for GO, but the argument is since EMU trains would be faster then GO would need less compared to locomotive hauled trains.

What matters is the power to weight ratio and the adhesion limits of the powered axles. I don't think electric locomotives should be ruled out because the locomotive options allow greater rolling stock flexibility. The motors on EMUs are not very strong compared to electric locomotives and because of their lighter weight provide less traction per axle. Once a bunch of BiLevels are attached to an EMU I wouldn't be so sure that it's acceleration curve would beat out a train of BiLevels with two electric locomotives.

There are certainly routes or time periods where EMUs would make sense but a more frequent service with smaller trains requires more platform time and creates greater track congestion. In rush hour on main lines there will not be enough platforms and time to have small EMUs providing the service.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

a more comfortable ride

The type of motive power has little influence on train handling. Regardless of the power source, if anything greater acceleration = increased passenger discomfort beyond a certain range.

Logically EMUs are meant for more frequent runs with less capacity but there would need to be more EMUs and more drivers purchased to match the capacity of a less frequent diesel locomotive pulling 12 cars so it would be difficult for it to be cheaper. The EMUs would be providing better more frequent service but where are the savings going to come from?

Add to this the costs of construction a newer and improved way side singled system or implementing cab signaling. The Lakeshore corridor was built for mixed use application, it is not optimal for a high frequency passenger train operation (15 minute or less internals) because of the distances between signals (this also apllies to all other rail corridors in GO's current and future system). It will be difficult to provide an efficient and timely system without either improvements in signaling or significantly increasing the number of main tracks needed. A combination in both likely will be necessary though improved signaling will reduce the need for additional main tracks. In any case increased train frequencies due to the implementation of EMU’s will have this added cost.

breaking - their motors are probably 20x louder than an electric train

Accelerating yes, braking no. The braking of trains does not contribute much to engine noise. Power is drawn off the main engine itself to run a compressor which replenishes the main reservoir which provides air for the brakes. Depending on how much ’air’ was used to brake the train the engine may rev 20% higher or not rev any higher at all. In any case this will usually occur when the train is idling at a station and is hardly noticeable beyond a few hundred feet, certainly its nothing compared to the acceleration phase which I must admit is extremely loud. (Think about how I feel sitting inside one of these beasts!)

Canada already has one of the best rail signalling systems in the world, and with track improvements and grade separations that would come with electrification, I don't see why standards have to be as strict.

The track improvements are extensive and more are on the way. However the signaled system is flawed as I’ve mentioned above. Some of GO’s current and several future purposed lines aren’t even signaled or use an older tpe of signalled system.

Has anyone considered making a new commuter system from the ground up? I guess there was GO-ALRT, but anything more recent? There just seems to be a lot of problems with GO sharing tracks with freight trains, and indeed not even owning the majority of its trackage. Sometimes I think it would just be easier to start from scratch and build a totally separate ROW, probably near the existing rail ROWs but maybe not.

It would definitely not be easier to start from scratch and it would be prohibitively expensive. New ROW’s would involve extensive property acquisition most likely through expropriation. It would not be popular and would - to put it mildly, probably bankrupt the province.
So no it is not feasible.

GO owns several corridors already: http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showpost.php?p=279079&postcount=104
On these corridors they control the dispatching of trains and the minimal freight operations that run on GO owned lines are not an impediment.

 

[p5connex]

Can someone please explain what an EMU is and what the difference to an electric train is?

p5

 

[kettal]

We could use them to upgrade service on non-electrified lines or sell them to someone else. Throw them out is misrepresentative, IMO.

I prefer to call it "creative accounting"

I'm certainly not qualified to give accurate numbers, but once Lakeshore is electrified I predict we will have an excess of spare locomotives for other lines.

 

[kettal]

Can someone please explain what an EMU is and what the difference to an electric train is?

p5

A locomotive hauled train has the engine in the front, and it pulls however many unpowered carriages behind it. Like GO trains, or those CN trains which have one locomotive in the front followed by 600 cargo trailers.

An EMU is a carriage which is self-powered. For example, TTC subway trains are EMU.

 

[TOareaFan]

GO says the corridor will be electrified by 2020, so the purchase of diesel trainsets now, only to throw them out in a few years is wasted money which should be spent instead on the electric upgrades.

Would they throw them out? Or would they transfer them to other lines that had not been electrified but had greater service demands than today.

So, you would suggest (if I read between the lines on the above) that we should just wait until 2020 for the service improvements?

 

[p5connex]

A locomotive hauled train has the engine in the front, and it pulls however many unpowered carriages behind it. Like GO trains, or those CN trains which have one locomotive in the front followed by 600 cargo trailers.

An EMU is a carriage which is self-powered. For example, TTC subway trains are EMU.

Okay, thanks.

So, if an EMU is self-powered, does this mean it runs from fuel or from electricity - I realize the subway runs from electricity, but in this case, where we are referring to the GO lines, what would that imply?

p5

 

[kettal]

Okay, thanks.

So, if an EMU is self-powered, does this mean it runs from fuel or from electricity - I realize the subway runs from electricity, but in this case, where we are referring to the GO lines, what would that imply?

p5

The E in EMU stands for electric, so it would involve electrification.

There are also DMU trains, where the D stands for diesel. Some VIA trains are DMU. So there's no locomotive, but it still runs on diesel.

 

[drum118]

Would they throw them out? Or would they transfer them to other lines that had not been electrified but had greater service demands than today.

So, you would suggest (if I read between the lines on the above) that we should just wait until 2020 for the service improvements?

Existing rolling stock would move to other lines to help to improve service on them as we get the new equipment. If we still have equipment after all lines are done, you sell it or keep some as backup for blackout cases.

We cannot wait until 2020 to do this.

Cost of an EMU vs. to today power vs. duel power is the best way to go and cheaper.

Duel power is the most expenses of the 3 and uncall for. Diesel power would operate on runs going outside electrified area. VIA and RR have no plans to change their power.

Having all cars EMU will deal with the issue if one cars dies on the run as the rest still can move it without effecting service. This was the reason GO was running 2 unites on the weekends or during special events.