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City Workers Strike 2009

Is there a significant skill issue involved in trash collection? Is the city struggling to retain trained trash collectors? Even then I don't begrudge them wages. I just want the productivity gap with the private sector eliminated. And I want the city to get rid off unfunded liabilities like bankable sick days (increasingly important for an aging workforce with more and more retirements). We have a leftist mayor saying this represents a liability to city finances and offering a fair alternative. Hardly a case of union busting like some would claim on here.
 
This is the same principle behind giving politicians pay increases - if the gap between compensation in the public and private sector gets too large, we'll have no chance of attracting top talent.

damn, that's the best we can do? that's top talent? :p
 
This is the same principle behind giving politicians pay increases - if the gap between compensation in the public and private sector gets too large, we'll have no chance of attracting top talent.

Has the recent financial collapse and Toronto's own, constant, fiscal troubles not proved this notion false? If so, it would also follow that US and Canadian corporate executives are 'better' than Europeans as reflected by their higher compensation.
 
This is the same principle behind giving politicians pay increases - if the gap between compensation in the public and private sector gets too large, we'll have no chance of attracting top talent.

Ahhh the Wall Street/Enron/Worldcom compensation philosophy/excuse. I'd agree that this principle applies when an organization is competing for skilled employees. However, when it comes to unskilled labour it most certainly does not. The proof of this is in the fact that these workers need a union to make as much as they do. If they was so much demand for their skills they would not need a union and they would not have an $8 an hour (a 47% premium) differential over contracted non-union staff. It's quite clear that the market wage is well below what these folks are making, and so is their productivity if those reports are accurate.
 
Ahhh the Wall Street/Enron/Worldcom compensation philosophy/excuse. I'd agree that this principle applies when an organization is competing for skilled employees. However, when it comes to unskilled labour it most certainly does not. The proof of this is in the fact that these workers need a union to make as much as they do. If they was so much demand for their skills they would not need a union and they would not have an $8 an hour (a 47% premium) differential over contracted non-union staff. It's quite clear that the market wage is well below what these folks are making, and so is their productivity if those reports are accurate.

While I agree with portions of what you are saying, such wage competition does not exist in a vacuum. Dean Barker makes this point clear in his book .......

The first chapter deals with the most basic issue, how the nanny state ensures that doctors and other highly educated professionals are in short supply, and that the supply of less-skilled workers is relatively plentiful. A big part of this story is trade. The conservative nanny state makes it easy to import goods as a way to replace much of the work done by workers in manufacturing, such as autoworkers, steel workers, and textile workers. Twenty-five years ago, manufacturing was an important source of middle class jobs for workers without college degrees, typically offering health care and pension benefits, in addition to a middle class wage. If goods produced by workers in developing countries (who typically earn only a small fraction of the wages of U.S. workers) can be imported, then the demand for the manufacturing workers in the United States will be reduced, placing downward pressure on the wages and compensation not only of manufacturing workers, but of workers without college degrees in general.

Immigration is another part of the story. The conservative nanny state allows many less-skilled workers into the country to fill jobs at lower wages than employers would be forced to pay the native born population. While allowing immigrant workers into the country can be seen as part of the free market, like allowing imported goods into the country, this is only half of the picture. The conservative nanny state puts on strict controls to limit the extent to which doctors, lawyers, economists, journalists, and other highly paid professionals must face foreign competition. These restrictions take a variety of forms, which will be discussed more thoroughly in Chapter 1, but the key point is that not everyone’s labor is placed in international competition. Those at the top of the wage ladder get to enjoy protected labor markets. This both raises their wages and means that everyone else must pay more money for their services.

The conservative nanny state also involves itself in other ways to ensure that highly skilled workers are paid well, and the rest of us pay the taxes in the form of higher prices for the goods and services they produce. For example, licensing requirements, like admission to the bar for lawyers, often are designed more to restrict supply than to ensure quality for consumers.
 
^
That's not entirely accurate, or at least not honest. Most of Barker's examples of anti-competitive behavior among 'the elites' seem bizarre. If immigrants or offshore producers don't meet whatever qualifications (i.e. medical school), that is more a matter of consumer protection than anti competitive behavior, though it can have NTB like effects. The reality is this kind of consumer protection exists everywhere. The Tata Nano likely wouldn't meet US crash safety standards and hence can't be imported just like a Honduran veterinarian can't pass himself off as a neuro surgeon.

That said, at least in Canada, recognition of foreign professional accreditation has been recognized as a pretty major issue. The difficulties in devising equivalencies will likely never be totally resolved, but I have yet to see the op ed by the Canadian Pharmacists Association arguing that enhanced recognition of foreign qualifications should be avoided due to the adverse effects on current pharmacists.
 
There might be an argument for say doctors in Ontario (restricted to 200 residencies a year for foreign trained MDs). But these arguments are in no way valid for these strikers. There is no vast conservtive elite conspiracy to oppress trash collectors who seem to be making more than middle class wages for low skilled work.
 
lol, right now everyone is staying put with what they have and being thankful my friend... ;)


About Public Sector wages, keep them at a good level but not at such a level that we have to keep increases taxes every year.

I don't think there is any danger that public sector wages will be too low. And if they are, public sector employees will start leaking to the private sector, and public sector wages will have to rise.

well that's why we do not care if the Police and Fire department gets good pay increases. They do their job well and are irreplaceable.

For every firefighter or cop there are ten more people out there who would love their job and would be just as qualified. They are extremely replaceable, especially at their wages.
 
There might be an argument for say doctors in Ontario (restricted to 200 residencies a year for foreign trained MDs). But these arguments are in no way valid for these strikers. There is no vast conservtive elite conspiracy to oppress trash collectors who seem to be making more than middle class wages for low skilled work.

$25/hr is more than a middle class wage now?
 
Because minimizing costs absolutely would result in a low-skill poorly-trained city workforce. Basically, anyone with any talent would leave the public sector to go work in the private sector where they could make more money.

This is the same principle behind giving politicians pay increases - if the gap between compensation in the public and private sector gets too large, we'll have no chance of attracting top talent.

That said, this dispute seems to have revealed that the gap now greatly favours the public sector workers, so absolutely some cuts to wages are necessary over the long term. But there is a point where cutting those wages too low would be harmful.

That's probably already the case. Unions are good at clipping tall daisies, if nothing else. Why would anyone with talent be content to work in an environment where advancement is based on seniority?
 
$25/hr is more than a middle class wage now?
It's well above mean and median for Toronto and Canada for a single person...and given that average family incomes for Ontarians are in the high 50s, it would be slightly below average for a single income household. Not bad for a job that does not require any post-secondary education and very little formal training.
 
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Lol, I know Truck Drivers here in Brampton who make only 18-20 dollars an hour and live great lives with their families.


25 dollars is well above average.


Truck drivers who work for the city are heavily overpaid compared to the private sector. In the private sector, Owner Operators or Truck Drivers driving their own truck for another company get paid around 30-35 dollars an hour and it has not changed for a long time. I know some city Truck drivers making around 30-50 dollars an hour just driving a regular truck.

So they are getting a 50-150% premium !!!
 
^
That's not entirely accurate, or at least not honest. Most of Barker's examples of anti-competitive behavior among 'the elites' seem bizarre. If immigrants or offshore producers don't meet whatever qualifications (i.e. medical school), that is more a matter of consumer protection than anti competitive behavior, though it can have NTB like effects. The reality is this kind of consumer protection exists everywhere. The Tata Nano likely wouldn't meet US crash safety standards and hence can't be imported just like a Honduran veterinarian can't pass himself off as a neuro surgeon.

If I want to hire IT professionals from India, for example, I am not free to do so. If I want to hire a lawyer from Slovenia, I am not free to do so. Hiding behind 'qualifications' is a distortion. Coal mined in China is not done to the same health and safety standards as done here, yet there is no restriction on importing steel made with it. If want to trust a Russian doctor with my health, one without Canadian accreditation, that should be my choice. Just as it is when I purchase goods made under lessor health, safety and environmental standards than if they were made here.


That said, at least in Canada, recognition of foreign professional accreditation has been recognized as a pretty major issue. The difficulties in devising equivalencies will likely never be totally resolved, but I have yet to see the op ed by the Canadian Pharmacists Association arguing that enhanced recognition of foreign qualifications should be avoided due to the adverse effects on current pharmacists.

Then have a equivalency exam and open the immigration floodgates.
 
^ Hahaha. You think the unions care about the residents of this city? That petition will end up in the trash pile in the nearest park. The only way they'll learn anything is if the mayor keeps them out for a few months....maybe about 18 days for each year of their contract....
 

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